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4 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

the thing is if you start with a base ideology of historical grievance and religious justification of vengeance, how hard is it to find something to be mad about in almost any place and time, esp given the depth of history of Islam v Europe. So it may be a distinction without much of a difference.

its both right?  crazy people and a form of religious zealotry.  quite a deadly combination.

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13 hours ago, Melody said:

But have they done anything in particular to **** them off?   I could find where Austria recently voted to budget some tax money to protect Jewish populations in that country.  Would that do it?   The attacks don’t appear to have targeted Synagogues or Jews in particular though.  
 

Seems like a group of Muslim Turks would find their efforts more profitably  spent on earthquake rescue and relief at home.  

Does it have to be anything in particular? To G’s point it could be the settling of a grievance from centuries ago.

But to Buddha’s point, it could be just random crazies wreaking havoc, irrespective of any political ideology.

Either way, it would be far, far better for Austria to treat this as a criminal act and respond to it as such, rather than some broad “act of war” that’s intended to ignite a new Crusades.

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i love all this historical grievance stuff.  so is it ok for north african christians to slaughter muslim teachers because their ancestors have been discriminated against by islamic governments for centuries?  or that their ancestors were killed or forcefully converted 1400 years ago?  sheesh, let it go.

my hugenot ancestors fled france after the revocation of the edict of nantes so i'm totally going back to paris and kling the first church deacon i can find to avenge them.

but seriously, this is partly the same issue you see here over the reconciliation between freedom of thought/expression with religion.  you see it in the united states and in europe and probably every secular society with religious minorities.

should a teacher at a public school be able to show a cartoon that offends some people in order to facilitate a discussion on censorship?  the answer in france is yes.  the answer in the united states is likely, "who is offended?"

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14 minutes ago, Buddha said:

should a teacher at a public school be able to show a cartoon that offends some people in order to facilitate a discussion on censorship?  the answer in france is yes.  the answer in the united states is likely, "who is offended?"

I agree with this.  For me, it depends on the age of the students though.  By high school, they should be cognitively developed enough to begin thinking critically about the things they see and read and putting them in historical context.   And frankly, some of the truths will be offensive to somebody.  But it requires some exposure to the offensive, then discussion as to why it is offensive.

Now younger students, not a fan of controversial topics being introduced.   They are still building a database of basic knowledge and skills and tend to think more in concrete terms.

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The problem is there are 40 and 60 year olds still incapable of critical thinking. What age do you suggest we start teaching their parents?

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23 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

The problem is there are 40 and 60 year olds still incapable of critical thinking. What age do you suggest we start teaching their parents?

By the time people are 40 to 60 years old, it's too late. Ignorance gets passed down through generations. We tend blame today's parents for their children being poorly-educated, but those same parents were almost certainly themselves poorly-educated under the stewardship of their own parents.

If we want to raise a generation of critical thinkers, we can't rely on ill-equipped parents to all of a sudden wake up and get smart about educating their children properly. Change doesn't happen by wishing for zeitgeist. The intervention to make that kind of change has to come from outside, from the system itself.

The $64 question is whether society's leaders even want to raise a generation of critical thinkers in the first place. They have a some good reasons to be against it.

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1 hour ago, CMRivdog said:

The problem is there are 40 and 60 year olds still incapable of critical thinking. What age do you suggest we start teaching their parents?

They haven't been taught critical thinking, rather given a spoon feed and regurgitate type of education.   My point was partly that this needs to be done at an appropriate age of brain development and life experience.  Teach the kids to think instead of fill in bubbles on a test.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

i love all this historical grievance stuff.

they say Americans are the most historically illiterate nation in the world. I say that may not always  be such a bad thing. You can't hang on to grievances you don't remember!

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That’s basically been my argument all along. Teachers are being graded by how well their students do on a standardized test. I may be wrong but isn’t funding at least partially determined by test scores as well?
 

What we end up with are a bunch of clones who are unable to think for themselves and ending up on Facebook asking where they can find pasteurized milk or something just as in inane.

My best teachers were the ones (there were only a couple) who used the textbook as an outline for their lecture. Their test were usually a couple of essay questions and you had better know practically everything about the subject.

Math and science is a bit different, but that was the way it was in English and so social studies 

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42 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

That’s basically been my argument all along. Teachers are being graded by how well their students do on a standardized test. I may be wrong but isn’t funding at least partially determined by test scores as well?
 

What we end up with are a bunch of clones who are unable to think for themselves and ending up on Facebook asking where they can find pasteurized milk or something just as in inane.

My best teachers were the ones (there were only a couple) who used the textbook as an outline for their lecture. Their test were usually a couple of essay questions and you had better know practically everything about the subject.

Math and science is a bit different, but that was the way it was in English and so social studies 

We agree.  One thing I will say about my DoDDS education is that we had the best teachers and, at least at that time, they were free to teach.  Only one really bad one that I can recall, unfortunately my senior U. S. Government teacher.   I learned more about government and the constitution from Problems of Democracy, which teacher was awesome.

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I only had one what I considered to be a horrible teacher. We moved after my freshman year of HS and the World Geography class I took in 8th grade at the old school didn’t transfer. It was a sophomore class at the old school but the new school didn’t accept it. I was forced to take another social studies course my senior year and the only thing that fit into my schedule (without dropping band) was World History. The teacher was near retirement and horrible. That coupled by the fact that she thought I was a radical. I wore an black armband for a Vietnam moratorium day. I wasn’t loud or disrespectful, just had the armband. I also supported Earth Day (she said it was a communist plot)

Other than questioning a few statements that she made on days we discussed current affairs I pretty much sat in the back of the room and math or English homework. Her tests were all true or false or multiple choice. A major waste of time.

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26 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

I only had one what I considered to be a horrible teacher. We moved after my freshman year of HS and the World Geography class I took in 8th grade at the old school didn’t transfer. It was a sophomore class at the old school but the new school didn’t accept it. I was forced to take another social studies course my senior year and the only thing that fit into my schedule (without dropping band) was World History. The teacher was near retirement and horrible. That coupled by the fact that she thought I was a radical. I wore an black armband for a Vietnam moratorium day. I wasn’t loud or disrespectful, just had the armband. I also supported Earth Day (she said it was a communist plot)

Other than questioning a few statements that she made on days we discussed current affairs I pretty much sat in the back of the room and math or English homework. Her tests were all true or false or multiple choice. A major waste of time.

I guess some sensitivity was in order in DoDDS schools because all of the students had military parents, most of whom were serving or had served in Vietnam.  But they (and we) certainly weren't muzzled on the subject of the War either.  

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On 11/3/2020 at 3:03 PM, Melody said:

I guess some sensitivity was in order in DoDDS schools because all of the students had military parents, most of whom were serving or had served in Vietnam.  But they (and we) certainly weren't muzzled on the subject of the War either.  

My sister taught in SoCal at the public school that served the El Toro Marine base in the '80s. At the time I remember her talking about the worst thing she had to deal with regard to the military environment was not about curriculum issues but the terrible level of sexism from the base kids' fathers, toward her but worse, toward their own their children. 

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1 hour ago, CMRivdog said:

 

If he's Oppenheimer-level, isn't the right play to kidnap him, shower him with money and goods and services, and have him work for you?

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51 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If he's Oppenheimer-level, isn't the right play to kidnap him, shower him with money and goods and services, and have him work for you?

The Israelis were not really interested in that.

The assassination was obviously preferable.

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

If he's Oppenheimer-level, isn't the right play to kidnap him, shower him with money and goods and services, and have him work for you?

I think this kind of thing is pointless though. It feeds the egos of megalomaniacs like Netanyahu. All it does is raise the temperature without doing anything tangible for Israeli (or US) security. Iranian society will have no trouble coming up with another gifted physicist. It's just the same mentality the US had in Vietnam or against the Jihadis, that we could kill enough of them to exhaust the pipeline. It didn't work for us at a gross level, it won't work for Israel at a fine level. It's one thing to do a covert retribution killing like taking out a Bin Laden on whose hands the blood is not arguable and call it justice; but no Iranian nuclear scientist has been responsible for the death of any Israeli (or American for that matter). What ends activities like guerilla or jihadi movements or clandestine nuclear work is primarily when the conditions change such the funding for it goes away. Jihadism has always been just as strong as the willingness of people to write checks for it to continue. Iran's nuclear work will end when they decide to stop funding it because it is no longer a national priority for them.

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The NSC is filled with guys trying to pad their resumes with less than 2 months to go. 

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Yeah, I meant to the Israelis it was preferable to them.

I don't understand their resistance to the JCPOA on Iranian nuclear enrichment restrictions.

This goes to G2's statement. The JCPOA was the incentive to restrict funding/ development of nuclear technologies. So now just deal with their non-nuclear activities.

PS: The Israelis did this, and did this now, because they know they still have cover under Trump. Under Biden - I'm guessing - not so much.

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Netanyahu is an *** wipe, and probably cooked up this idiocy.  But I wouldn't rule out some sort of US covert ops involvement.  Assassinating a scientist is so lame though, I wouldn't expect anyone to take the credit for it.

Hey did you see me being anti-Semitic just then, when I criticized Israeli foreign policy?

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I agree that if it is just the Israelis, they have better cover to do it. under Trump than they would under Biden. I would also say that the Trump people don’t want Biden to re-enter the nukes treaty with Iran, so they have an interest in this.

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18 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I agree that if it is just the Israelis, they have better cover to do it. under Trump than they would under Biden. I would also say that the Trump people don’t want Biden to re-enter the nukes treaty with Iran, so they have an interest in this.

Yes it seems that the large brain analysts are suggesting that the only purpose of this stupid stunt is to provoke a violent response from Iran, which would make a return to JCPOA in 2021 more difficult.  In that case, it is just a murder.  

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