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with france and turkey basically about to declare war on each other, its probably a good idea this psg-istanbul game is being played without fans.

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31 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

well, this should slow Brexit down...too late

 

looks like the labour party is actually trying to win the next election.  strange.

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a week after a teacher had his head cut off after showing a cartoon about mohammed, a woman in front of a catholic church in Nice had her head cut off and two other people were stabbed to death.

somebody attacked the french embassy in saudi arabia too.

its funny how all these islamic folks are attacking french people and france because a magazine in france published cartoons about mohammed, but nobody is attacking chinese citizens when the chinese government is actively engaging in genocidal murder of muslims in china.

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39 minutes ago, Buddha said:

a week after a teacher had his head cut off after showing a cartoon about mohammed, a woman in front of a catholic church in Nice had her head cut off and two other people were stabbed to death.

somebody attacked the french embassy in saudi arabia too.

its funny how all these islamic folks are attacking french people and france because a magazine in france published cartoons about mohammed, but nobody is attacking chinese citizens when the chinese government is actively engaging in genocidal murder of muslims in china.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think there would not be attacks in China if it were a society as open as France and thus as easy to plan attacks in?

Though there is also a historical overlay. Europe has been the great Enemy of Islam since the Crusades,. It is Europeans that took back territorial gains by Islam in the middle ages and thus who are the greater threat to fundamentalist Islamic eschatology than the Chinese have historically been. And radical Islam is nothing if not a world view rooted in the grievances of the past.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

looks like the labour party is actually trying to win the next election.  strange.

Leadership matters

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26 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think there would not be attacks in China if it were a society as open as France and thus as easy to plan attacks in?

Though there is also a historical overlay. Europe has been the great Enemy of Islam since the Crusades,. It is Europeans that took back territorial gains by Islam in the middle ages and thus who are the greater threat to fundamentalist Islamic eschatology than the Chinese have historically been. And radical Islam is nothing if not a world view rooted in the grievances of the past.

my point is that the chinese are a much greater threat to muslims than the french showing a cartoon of the prophet mohammed.  wouldnt you agree?  and that if there is a "muslim rage" out there, it should be against china and not france.

i think you'll find that a vast majority of muslim states talking of boycotting france and french products and/or openly calling for killing french people have taken no such stance with respect to china.  let me know when there is a call for jihad against the chinese.

which i believe is caused on a state level by $$$ and the need to appease chinese paymasters and on an individual level likely because of geography and history. 

but the gravity of the "crimes" against islam and muslims taking place in china far outstrips cartoons in france.  perhaps they should redirect their anger away from france and more toward a more active enemy?

 

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21 minutes ago, Buddha said:

perhaps they should redirect their anger away from france and more toward a more active enemy?

 

Perhaps they are guided to focus there anger on issues like we're seeing in France in order to ensure the political powers don't need to answer to their people about a more active enemy.

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31 minutes ago, Buddha said:

my point is that the chinese are a much greater threat to muslims than the french showing a cartoon of the prophet mohammed.  wouldnt you agree?  and that if there is a "muslim rage" out there, it should be against china and not france.

i think you'll find that a vast majority of muslim states talking of boycotting france and french products and/or openly calling for killing french people have taken no such stance with respect to china.  let me know when there is a call for jihad against the chinese.

which i believe is caused on a state level by $$$ and the need to appease chinese paymasters and on an individual level likely because of geography and history. 

but the gravity of the "crimes" against islam and muslims taking place in china far outstrips cartoons in france.  perhaps they should redirect their anger away from france and more toward a more active enemy?

 

I'm sure part of has to do with Chinese economic power, but I wouldn't go so far as to make the admission that radical religionists are rational by external standards to begin with. To someone immersed in the 'logic' of in a religious revelation what is important may bear little resemblance to anything intelligible to a rational viewer on the outside. Heck you need look no further than that it makes no sense for Fox and Trump to still be campaigning against Hillary, but for people detached from reality, that imperative may feed some deeper need than the practical value.

 

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the democratic socialists of america immediately come out in support of jeremy corbyn.  because of course they did.

i actually think the idea that jeremy corbyn hates jews is absurd.  i think jeremy corbyn hates america, israel, and any other entity he believes is related to western hegemony.  and because israel is a jewish state, he comes across as anti semitic because he refuses to criticize anyone who criticizes israel or zionism, no matter how they do it.  he's friends with a lot of people whose organizations' raison d'etre is to eliminate jews.  not a good look.

is that a form of individual anti jewishness by corbyn?  maybe it is and im downplaying it, but i think the heart of his issue is he is an unreconstructed hippy who hates the west, not that he hates jews.

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4 hours ago, Buddha said:

the democratic socialists of america immediately come out in support of jeremy corbyn.  because of course they did.

i actually think the idea that jeremy corbyn hates jews is absurd.  i think jeremy corbyn hates america, israel, and any other entity he believes is related to western hegemony.  and because israel is a jewish state, he comes across as anti semitic because he refuses to criticize anyone who criticizes israel or zionism, no matter how they do it.  he's friends with a lot of people whose organizations' raison d'etre is to eliminate jews.  not a good look.

is that a form of individual anti jewishness by corbyn?  maybe it is and im downplaying it, but i think the heart of his issue is he is an unreconstructed hippy who hates the west, not that he hates jews.

Maybe there is  more resonance to charge of anti-semitism in Europe? There are deeper strains of it there than in the relatively short history of the US  so I imagine there is less 'benefit of the doubt' that someone wandered into such a stance by accident.

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5 minutes ago, Buddha said:

all sorts of videos on twitter of various shootings.

Why Austria?   Evidently the attackers, or some of them, were Turkish speaking.

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Why not Austria? It's a country that's certainly considered part of the anti-Islam west.

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Why not Austria? It's a country that's certainly considered part of the anti-Islam west.

But have they done anything in particular to **** them off?   I could find where Austria recently voted to budget some tax money to protect Jewish populations in that country.  Would that do it?   The attacks don’t appear to have targeted Synagogues or Jews in particular though.  
 

Seems like a group of Muslim Turks would find their efforts more profitably  spent on earthquake rescue and relief at home.  

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2 hours ago, Melody said:

But have they done anything in particular to **** them off?   I could find where Austria recently voted to budget some tax money to protect Jewish populations in that country.  Would that do it?   The attacks don’t appear to have targeted Synagogues or Jews in particular though.  
 

Seems like a group of Muslim Turks would find their efforts more profitably  spent on earthquake rescue and relief at home.  

The cultural milieu that Islamic radicals swim in is so foreign to us we probably couldn't make head or tail out of it if we knew, but remember Austria is significant as the high water mark of Islamic expansion into Europe and where they suffered the 1st defeat to begin the long years of slow decline of the Empire. So who knows? It could be vengeance on the anniversary of someone having done something to someone at the siege of Vienna 5 centuries ago.

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2 hours ago, Melody said:

But have they done anything in particular to **** them off?   I could find where Austria recently voted to budget some tax money to protect Jewish populations in that country.  Would that do it?   The attacks don’t appear to have targeted Synagogues or Jews in particular though.  
 

Seems like a group of Muslim Turks would find their efforts more profitably  spent on earthquake rescue and relief at home.  

because one lone crazy person who lived there got a gun and decided to kill a bunch of people.  same thing has happened in france and germany and belgium and england before too.

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17 minutes ago, Buddha said:

because one lone crazy person who lived there got a gun and decided to kill a bunch of people.  same thing has happened in france and germany and belgium and england before too.

This was more than a lone crazy with a gun.  Multiple shooters and a coordinated attack.  Iirc, one of them blew himself up as well using a Suicide vest or similar?

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19 minutes ago, Melody said:

This was more than a lone crazy with a gun.  Multiple shooters and a coordinated attack.  Iirc, one of them blew himself up as well using a Suicide vest or similar?

ok.  six crazy people with guns.

i dont think this is a matter of a group of foreigners thinking of targeting a particular place because of political ideology or actions taken on the world stage, its merely an opportunity taken by people who probably live there.

the same opportunity that was taken by people in germany, england, spain, etc.

france is different.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

ok.  six crazy people with guns.

i dont think this is a matter of a group of foreigners thinking of targeting a particular place because of political ideology or actions taken on the world stage, its merely an opportunity taken by people who probably live there.

the same opportunity that was taken by people in germany, england, spain, etc.

france is different.

the thing is if you start with a base ideology of historical grievance and religious justification of vengeance, how hard is it to find something to be mad about in almost any place and time, esp given the depth of history of Islam v Europe. So it may be a distinction without much of a difference.

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