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I've given up criticizing the show for not being smart because I really don't think that's their intent and with any movies or TV shows I judge them on what they're trying to be.  I made peace with that a long time ago.  They're not trying to make us think or to be clever or to even surprise us....

 

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2 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

I can see someone not liking how long they took on it, but I thought they had to give at least a full episode to it. 

Carl's death:

My wife wondered if Carl was going to die in this episode or not... I wondered if Carl was going die in this season or not. :)

For what it's worth, I did like most of it... I loved the flash backs where he's basically doing his good-byes with Judith and writing the letters.  Given how pragmatic he's been shown to be at the end, I tend to think he would have off'd himself sooner... I don't think he would have let his Dad and Michonne drag it out so long.  I think he would have insisted, as soon as it became obvious that he was dying/turning (ie, by some miracle he didn't get enough "virus" to kill him) that a prolonged goodbye was not only going to prolong the pain, but was dangerous given the circumstances.

Side note: Daryl has been around since (pretty much) the beginning.  He didn't show up until two or three episodes into season 1, but the character was part of the group since the beginning... just off hunting I think when Rick was first there.

What I also liked: I did like Ezekiel's efforts to try and turn the Savior (or at least distract him).  I thought that played out well.

What I thought failed:

I wasn't pleased with the Carol and Morgan fight scenes.  Too much of the invincible good guy... bad guys are semi-behind cover, out number the good guys, who are in the open, but the good guys still win... yuck.

I did NOT like Morgan insisting that he HAD to kill the Savior, or the others insisting that they didn't have to do it.  Sorry, this is war and the Savior have been shown to essentially be war criminals.  If the Saviors were acting in any way honorably, that's one thing... but they haven't... not even a little bit.  I would have no moral issues with killing the guy.

I also did not like how little 10-year old Billy (or whatever his name is) has the strength to jab the stick through his throat --- unless the zombie virus in some way weakens human bones, both in the living and the dead.  This would explain why it's suddenly so easy to jab a knife through a skull.  Of course, I would expect to see a lot more broken bones then as well, which we certainly have NOT see in the story.

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I liked seeing Happy Negan in the fantasy flash forward.

Minor spoiler

We finally learn that those aren't accurate representations of what the future is... it's Carl's fantasy visions.

 

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1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

Carl's death:

My wife wondered if Carl was going to die in this episode or not... I wondered if Carl was going die in this season or not. :)

For what it's worth, I did like most of it... I loved the flash backs where he's basically doing his good-byes with Judith and writing the letters.  Given how pragmatic he's been shown to be at the end, I tend to think he would have off'd himself sooner... I don't think he would have let his Dad and Michonne drag it out so long.  I think he would have insisted, as soon as it became obvious that he was dying/turning (ie, by some miracle he didn't get enough "virus" to kill him) that a prolonged goodbye was not only going to prolong the pain, but was dangerous given the circumstances.

Side note: Daryl has been around since (pretty much) the beginning.  He didn't show up until two or three episodes into season 1, but the character was part of the group since the beginning... just off hunting I think when Rick was first there.

What I also liked: I did like Ezekiel's efforts to try and turn the Savior (or at least distract him).  I thought that played out well.

What I thought failed:

I wasn't pleased with the Carol and Morgan fight scenes.  Too much of the invincible good guy... bad guys are semi-behind cover, out number the good guys, who are in the open, but the good guys still win... yuck.

I did NOT like Morgan insisting that he HAD to kill the Savior, or the others insisting that they didn't have to do it.  Sorry, this is war and the Savior have been shown to essentially be war criminals.  If the Saviors were acting in any way honorably, that's one thing... but they haven't... not even a little bit.  I would have no moral issues with killing the guy.

I also did not like how little 10-year old Billy (or whatever his name is) has the strength to jab the stick through his throat --- unless the zombie virus in some way weakens human bones, both in the living and the dead.  This would explain why it's suddenly so easy to jab a knife through a skull.  Of course, I would expect to see a lot more broken bones then as well, which we certainly have NOT see in the story.

Yeah and Carol.  She has been there since episode one.  Those 3 Rick/Carl/Carol, actually in the first episode and in every season.

I think Carl was trying to let Rick and Michonne have more time to adjust.  He accepted his fate pretty well.  I think if it were not for his dad and his best friend he would have offed himself a lot sooner.

That scene with Rick sitting with his head in his hands and Michonne standing there....I thought it was already over...then I hear the thup of the silenced gun and Ricks reaction...man that hit home like nothing else.  I am not sure if I could survive something like that.

The Morgan thing is him teeter tottering back and forth between the 'kill no one' and 'have to kill everyone' sides of him.  Some kind of weird internal battle.

I hate when they do stuff like that.  No one saw the kid walk up behind him?  I did not think too much about how easy it is to jab him through the throat, but both are not realistic in the least and I hate the 'well it's a show about zombies it is not supposed to be realistic' quote we get from people doing the show.  That part is a given and a big part of the show...we suspend belief for that, but give us real after that.

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It was also cool to see that the flash forwards were just Carls vision of the future.  Sealed that up now.  Not sure why they showed it in the first episode of this season when Carl was not bit until like 7 episodes in, but at least it explains it.

I like how this may push Rick to try and be more human also.  He promised his son he would make it a reality, but I doubt Ricks version has a smiling Negan in it.  lol

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Pretty interesting episode overall.  Negan caring about Carls death seemed forced.  They spent a couple days together and Carl tried to kill him.  Negan almost had Rick cut his arm off etc etc.

They are forcing 'good guy Negan' on us while forcing "crazy Rick' on us at the same time so we will have a change of heart and wonder why Rick is not trying to make peace with Negan.

The meat grinder scene was really well done IMO.  Glad they are all gone.  They were super annoying.  Still have to deal with Jadis, but at least now she talks like a human.

At the end of last weeks episode they showed Rick sitting under a stained glass/framed piece of art hanging from a tree....he has blood all over his hand and his side is bleeding pretty good.  Looked like a gun shot or a knife wound maybe.  I am guessing that is some big flash forward to the end of the war maybe?  Could they kill off everyone minus Rick and try to somehow start the whole thing over.  A reboot.  Something is going on there.

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I completely forgot Aaron and Enid are still around. They do these side plot things and then go so many episodes until they come back to it and you just don't care anymore about it. 

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14 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

I completely forgot Aaron and Enid are still around. They do these side plot things and then go so many episodes until they come back to it and you just don't care anymore about it. 

yeah that's one downside to the way they structure it.  Same thing with Gabriel.  

I liked this episode.  I do think Negan was upset about Carl but maybe not to that degree... but why would he have to force tears?  Nobody can see him.  I think he genuinely liked him and was right in thinking he was made for that world.  Saw him as having what it takes to be a leader.

The meat grinder and that whole story line was really good. I don't care about the community of women.

 

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I do not give a crap about the woman community either.  I think they obviously play a big part in the end, but right now they have not built that story up enough for me to care.

"My mercy prevails over my wrath" was the quote they kept using in that flash forward (at least I am assuming it is a flash forward) with the red eyed Rick bleeding out under that tree.  I always thought that scene was him mourning Carl, but it appears not.

What could make him cry so much?  I am putting money on him showing Mercy, having it come back to bite him in a bad way (like everyone he loved gone or close to it) and him trying to rectify that with himself and Carls dying words about showing mercy and Rick promising to make his world a reality.

He keeps saying it so I think he is trying to convince himself that it was the right move...even if most of his people died.  And FTR I do not read the comics and hate comic book spoilers as much as the next person.  This is just me spit balling.

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11 hours ago, Oblong said:

yeah that's one downside to the way they structure it.  Same thing with Gabriel.  

I liked this episode.  I do think Negan was upset about Carl but maybe not to that degree... but why would he have to force tears?  Nobody can see him.  I think he genuinely liked him and was right in thinking he was made for that world.  Saw him as having what it takes to be a leader.

The meat grinder and that whole story line was really good. I don't care about the community of women.

 

I agree with all of this.

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I cannot say I am thrilled with the direction.  All of a sudden zombie guts are going to kill people or make them sick or turn or something?  Negans grand plan is to hurl a bunch of corpses over the walls?  Pieces of corpses?  Whole walkers?  Are they making catapults or something?

That is about all I took away from that episode.  Gabrielle is going blind....because of the virus or whatever that got him sick?  He got sick when him and Negan covered themselves in guts to escape the trailer.  Negan is fine and then Gabrielle gets sick and now he is losing his eye sight because of it.

I think the writers need to take over control of this show and start writing things that make sense.  Kirkman is the visionary who brought this show to us, but I think it is time to steer drastically from the comics.  Have people go back and look at the entire show.  Dissect it, piece by piece and start making plots that make sense.

One minute the saviors are all contained and surrounded and the next they are apparently free from any problems...and not only that now they are taking the fight to Rick.  One minute Rick and Co are shaking in fear and the next they are fierce warriors.  One minute everyone is getting sprayed with blood and covering themselves in guts and the next it is the next great strategy to take a town down.

Still a top 2 show for me and will always be, but a little more imagination to spice things up would be nice.

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I think the plan of throwing zombies over the wall is more like when they threw dead cows over wall in sieges.  It's about trying to poison/demoralize.  I don't think they believe that splashing guts on a person will kill 'em, but if you toss enough rotting zombie corpse over there it'll get smelly and crowded. 

Plus there's the added benefit that the zombies won't die.  They'll likely have pretty broken bodies but some will probably still be able to move and bite.

So you've got mounting piles of smelly, somewhat noisy, ugly crap that you have to deal with... at least a little bit.  Assuming you can build a catapult big enough to get a body over the wall from a safe distance (or provide armor for the people operating the device), it would be a slow, but effective weapon.

HOWEVER... 

This assumes that there aren't other, easily, fast, more effective alternatives that could be used against less than fantastic wall defense... you know like driving a garbage truck full speed at the wooden walls.  Or using an RPG against the wooden walls. 

tl;dr:

Zombie catapult ammunition makes sense in a medieval zombie apocalypse, but modern era against a wooden fort means there are probably much more effective, faster options.

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How does this relate to when they covered themselves in zombie guts before?  

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4 minutes ago, Oblong said:

How does this relate to when they covered themselves in zombie guts before?  

Or during the same episode when the walkers climbed the fence and were also using rocks to pound on the glass door.

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I get that sometimes writers/producers overlook some things at the beginning of a story because they couldn't know where the story would go and would hate to let some minor thing from the beginning halt it... like Luke/Leia kissing or Ray Krebbs fooling around with Lucy on Dallas (who was later to be revealed as his niece as a Ewing son)... but they've done this guts as a shield thing on FTWD and I think they were doing it a few years ago... when Rick's GF and her son were killed, I think Carl was shot in the eye at that point too..

 

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I like what they're doing with this now.... finally some decent twists and plot points. Loyalty and all that... Simon turning on Negan, Dwight where ever he is...  we see Negan has some crazy fetish with Lucille beyond thinking its a cool toy.  

Everything Negan told Rick is true from a certain point of view.

 

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I am sure it's going to come out that Negan had a daughter named Lucille or something and he uses it to remember her by or something else stupid.  His fetish with the bat is silly.

Not the worst episode ever, but I have a hard time believing with all those people in all those different communities they have lived in that not one person decided it would be a good idea to look for ways to build windmills and irrigation systems or dig wells etc.  After about 6 months or so of pretty much knowing we got knocked back tot he middle ages it would be one of the first things I would be looking into.  Sustainability.

So now Negan is in the hands of the dumpster girl.  I guess she was stalking him or something and took her chance to grab him up when he came out of the cellar of burning death.  She is pissed at him though for killing her people, but he will convince her that it was not his idea (and he is actually right this time), but he will convince her that Rick is the real threat and she will join up with Negan now.

This cast needs a reduction ASAP.  Not enough screen time for all these characters.  There are so many that could go bye bye to give us more time with the good ones.  I would still like to see more Carol.  Daryl was in the episode for about 2 minutes.  Michonne is the sympathizer now so she has to go.  I think Maggie is in for a sudden shocking death.  Pregnant and all.  I think we see Negan walking up and down the group at their knees again...minus a couple of the guys who are not going to sit back and watch that happen again.  Minus Rick, Daryl and Carol.  Just a guess, but I am not sure if they got enough out of the whole beat their brains in with Glenn and Abraham and I doubt Negan is going anywhere anytime soon.  This whole season is setting up for a little more Negan than I wanted.

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So I wonder how often a person cleaned their stabbing weapons to the point of not having any residual blood on it from a walker in the past?  Maybe they were vigilant about it before because they knew if they accidentally cut themselves they would turn...

This also calls to mind that scene a few seasons ago (maybe last season) when Rick cut his hand after killing a couple walkers and having them linger on that for a moment with no pay off.  Maybe he is immune?

In any case I find it hard to believe all of a sudden this is a thing.  They never really addressed it, but they never really addressed the fact that they are still driving cars like 3 years after production of gas would have stopped so I am not really fuming over it.

Not sure why the kid keeps looking for the dude that killed his brother when Morgan told him it was Gavin...even though we know it was not him, not sure why the kid dismissed Morgan telling him.

I still keep wondering how freaking huge the saviors must be....Rick and Co already killed hundreds of them.  And they still have enough to mount attack after attack.

Oceanside people...the new jazz lovers, I am guessing we see them more and more so add them to the mix with all Rick, Kingdom and Hilltop people and it is still looking like the Saviors would outnumber them.  Apparently in close enough proximity to go back and forth, but Rick and Co lived at Alexandria for a few months before getting a whiff of them.

I always want the show to move on....just because fresh scenery would be nice...a change up of how the show is done would be nice.  The way it is shot, the writing, the story...everything.  A big flash forward...something.  The show found a formula that works and they are sticking with it until they milk it...I just cannot help but wonder why, when it appears the end is near, they do not switch things up drastically to the point it looks like a new show, but follows the same (or some of the same) characters and their arcs.

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I look past logistical issues, like gas, power, etc.  I don't look past things that don't make sense and what the kid did didn't make sense.  

I liked what happened because it's a good throwback to people turning and all that.  I was just thinking about the show on Sunday as I was going to miss it.  I was thinking how it evolved from a zombie show into a people show.  The zombies were almost non existent.

 

 

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Busy day for me so may not get to expound on this thought, but that was one of the best episodes in the past 2-3 seasons last night.

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Helicopter is back.  Jadis was waiting for it...that is why she kept checking her watch and apparently had a flare on stand by that Negan grabbed up.  

There was a ton of movement last night IMO.  The entire episode made sense.  There was plenty of emotion.  I liked how they said Rick did not read the letter yet.  Makes sense with everything he is doing.  But now that he read it....does it change his direction?  There is a full text version of his letter online if you want to read it...I thought it was really good.

Carol finding the kid in the same situation her daughter was in when Rick left her back in season 2 was a nice touch.

So who is in the helicopter?  I am guessing we get something to nibble on with that at the season finale in 2 weeks.  I also like how they showed Jadis Ikea living quarters....everything all pristine while they live in a garbage dump was weird.  Dirt/grime on the floors at least would have gotten in.  She had a suitcase packed like she was ready for the helicopter.  I like how she was feeding him to the walker one minute and the next was letting him free all because he shared a story with her.

Daryl and Rosita going to take out Eugenes outpost seems inevitable.

The call back to Rick giving his word like he did about 15 episodes back and then Daryl shot the dude after he came out of hiding and gave them the info....now Rick is straight up lying...which is fine IMO when it comes to this group.  There is something to be said for second chances, but if you are siding (willingly) with a dude who beats peoples brains in to make a point then you should reevaluate.

So who did Negan pick up on the side of the road?

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Back to a few improbable things all happening.  Well one really.  Eugene tied up and clumsy as he is got away from 2 hardened killers...I know the walkers were in Rositas way, but I have a hard time believing that sequence.

I did like most of the rest.  I like how Negan handled his 2 'right hand men'.  He did with both what he should have.

Carls letter tugged at my heart strings.  As I get older and have more kids those things resonate a LOT when before stuff like that I would not have even noticed.

What does the finale have for us?  Anything exciting or just a bunch of shooting with both sides still alive and well and planning the next phase of the attack?  Will there be movement?  

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I think the big question is what happens to Morgan.  Does he die or just wander off again?

Where's the garbage lady.

I liked the way they handled the dwight/simon thing.  It is the first time in a long while with this show, maybe going back to the beginning, where any kind of creativity was shown by the writers.

 

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