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MAROTH4MVP

2017- Redwings Offseason

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1 minute ago, lordstanley said:

If I hire Shelton as GM I hope Biggs doesn't become his Helene St.James-like lackey. I'd need some journos in this town to hold the front office accountable.

So I'm the new Jeff Moss?

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Well, if you want somehow who is in "win now" mode, Bryan Murray could be your man (ouch - tasteless of me?)

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Not that I have a clue who would honestly be a good fit, but these are a couple of names I have suggested in the past in regards to the question of who would replace Kenny . . .

Michael Futa (LA Kings: Director of Player Personnel)

Paul Fenton (Nashville: Director of Scouting and Assistant GM)

Julien BriseBois (Tampa Bay: Assistant GM)

Ryan Stewart (Chicago: Director of Pro Scouting)

Joe Will (San Jose: Assistant GM)

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18 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Well, if you want somehow who is in "win now" mode, Bryan Murray could be your man (ouch - tasteless of me?)

Ha, I like it, but I have that sense of humor ;)  I haven't heard much about him lately or how he's doing, but I'm surprised he's still hanging in there.  It didn't sound so good when he was first diagnosed.  On that note, also pleasanlty surprised to hear Dave Strader on a playoff telecast.  

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I think Holland is a poor GM. You could replace him with anyone with a bit of front office experience and probably come out ahead, if only to get a fresh set of eyes on the team. Holland could very well be the worst GM in the NHL, or at least the worst option for a team in the wings' position. 

That said, he isn't going anywhere in the near future, so maybe he will surprise us now that he is forced to deal with a rebuild. 

I assume he will try to rebuild on the fly. He will probably sign some vets again, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Somebody has to play for the team after all, and it's not like we have many promising young prospects. 

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Do you believe that Larkin still makes the team out of camp if Datsyuk and Helm aren't injured?

I believe he would have made the team over Ferraro (in lineup), Pulkkinen (in lineup), Andersson (scratched), and Jurco (scratched) opening night; at the very least he's on the roster and I imagine he still would have played as well.  And they also gave Franzen two games which would have been another opening after those games.  The team seemed pretty hyped after his strong college, grand rapids, and worlds showings and gave every indication going into camp he'd be given a chance to make the team.  I also remember a ton of people pointing towards Babcock being gone as far as Larkin making the team.

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Even if Dylan wouldn't have made the line-up in the hypothetical, he surely would have made it by now.

The larger point is a young player, can in fact, make the roster under Holland, despite Tater's assertions to the contrary.

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41 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Holland could very well be the worst GM in the NHL, or at least the worst option for a team in the wings' position. 

 

Disagree with the first part, I think he's still in the top half IMO under the right circumstances.

Would agree with the bold though.

The problem with replacing someone without a pedigree is that to the extent Chris Ilitch is giving march orders that making the playoffs is a priority, a younger GM will be even less likely than Holland would be to resist. Just as if golden boy Babcock clashed over Holland over roster composition, a newbie like Blashill had no chance of winning debates with Holland.

At least Holland presumably has the credibility to argue for a rebuild to Illitch. But only if Holland wanted to, which it seems he does not.

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2 hours ago, lordstanley said:

Well, if you want somehow who is in "win now" mode, Bryan Murray could be your man (ouch - tasteless of me?)

He has had cancer for awhile, you could always just swamp out with his brother and no one would notice.

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1 hour ago, lordstanley said:

Disagree with the first part, I think he's still in the top half IMO under the right circumstances.

Would agree with the bold though.

The problem with replacing someone without a pedigree is that to the extent Chris Ilitch is giving march orders that making the playoffs is a priority, a younger GM will be even less likely than Holland would be to resist. Just as if golden boy Babcock clashed over Holland over roster composition, a newbie like Blashill had no chance of winning debates with Holland.

At least Holland presumably has the credibility to argue for a rebuild to Illitch. But only if Holland wanted to, which it seems he does not.

I don't know enough about the bad deals handed out by other NHL GMs to know. I just said he could be, because he's made some pretty bad deals. 

Its mostly just that he seemed to vastly overpay for some guys, which you just can't do in a salary cap world. I don't care too much about whether he should have let a kid play over a vet. I think that's highly speculative regarding whether or not the kid would have been better. 

He could be ok with the rebuild on the fly. It's not like he has a lot of money left to overpay with anymore. Maybe he can take stock of the projected roster, identify the obvious weak points, and simply address those with the money he has, or trade something to get it, while allowing the high ceiling kids to get their ice time and develop. 

Maybe mrazek or Howard has a great year. Maybe they see small improvements from a number of guys, and they sneak into the playoffs as a 7 seed or something. 

You never know. You don't need to tank, and I don't really want them to tank. I just want them to hang on to whatever young talent they have and see what happens, and try to avoid having to play kids that aren't ready yet. 

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To me, Holland suffers from a lot fromthe "loyalty" issue that a lot of the older school GMs seem to operate under, but he's by far the worst.  This includes keeping players around but also compensating them for what they've provided previously without really accounting for how the contract will look even a couple years out.  Abdelkader, Helm, and Glendening mostly outproduced their old deals and I've heard it mentioned before how you also have to pay for past production.  Holland also seems to give out NTC like a drunken sailor, another loyalty thing.  I think Holland and a few GMs are stuck with this old thinking in that showing loyalty and rewarding players will make more people want to play for you, it worked in the non-salary cap era because you could throw your money around like that and show appreciation without it really hurting your future.  Now the emphasis is on drafting and developing guys to exploit their entry level contracts and finding guys to play roles at as big of a discount as you can, basically the opposite of most GM thinking before.  As we saw with Cleary and thebottom six contracts he throws around I think Holland just had the game pass him by with the salary cap coming around and the Wings (predictably, can't do it every generation) not being able to mine gems in the draft out of Europe.  I get that the loyalty thing used to be a big deal, you would hear players speak about the Detroit org and how they felt like family and how well they were treated.  That's great and all, but it has messed up their salary cap, you can't be loyal to a fault.

Hopefully after his current contract is up Holland steps aside.  I imagine someone like Draper will be promoted up within the front office, but I hope they also bring in someone from outside the organization as a type of consultant at least so there is a fresh perspective outside of the Holland tree.

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22 hours ago, lordstanley said:

Disagree with the first part, I think he's still in the top half IMO under the right circumstances.

Would agree with the bold though.

The problem with replacing someone without a pedigree is that to the extent Chris Ilitch is giving march orders that making the playoffs is a priority, a younger GM will be even less likely than Holland would be to resist. Just as if golden boy Babcock clashed over Holland over roster composition, a newbie like Blashill had no chance of winning debates with Holland.

At least Holland presumably has the credibility to argue for a rebuild to Illitch. But only if Holland wanted to, which it seems he does not.

Mike was the owner and we know he had no intention of rebuilding. We also know he's very loyal to his players.

I haven't read much about what Chris thinks, but I would assume the company line of any team would be compete, especially with a new arena, while not handing any more long term contracts. And deal veterans where you can (trade deadline) for draft picks. In effect, pretty much the same as the last couple months of this season.

The expansion draft gives an opportunity to perhaps dump a Helm, so if that happens it would be a sign to longer-term thinking. And they'd be in okay position cap wise, with likely only DeKuyser, Abdelkader, and Nielsen having impactful contracts beyond 2019/2020.

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The Red Wings have talent.  It's there.  They have some good offensive weapons.   Their defense is solid, not great. 

 

What the desperately lack are two things.    A defenceman that can start an offensive rush.  They have nobody that can do that.   Kronwall was once halfway decent at it but that but that was a long time ago now.  that was an instant drop offf when they lost Rafalski and than Lidstrom.   They need TWO guys that can start a rush with that first pass. 

They also need crease cloggers.   I know Abby tries, but only because nobody else can do it.   They had one of the best to ever play the game in Holmstrom and Franzen was really good at it too.   If you can get one good guy like that - you will see goal totals for guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Mantha go up.  They rarely get rebounds or second chances, they don't get goalies flustered anymore.    Any goalie can stop a shot from 95% of players if they have a clear view.....

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I disagree with the assertion the Wings have talent.  Not nearly enough to be relevant, at least.

The Wings have talent the way a flat tire still has air in it.

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I don't see how adding a couple of aging veteran players in FA is going to significantly improve this team. I don't see how Kenny can fix the defensive situation without a rebuild.

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2 minutes ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

I don't see how adding a couple of aging veteran players in FA is going to significantly improve this team. I don't see how Kenny can fix the defensive situation without a rebuild.

This tweener situation that Holland has gotten us into is the same situation that Dumars got the Pistons into. Kenny, like Joe, refuses to press the reset button and start over. Kenny will continue to float along with the core roster he has, adding middling veteran free agents here and there. He won't get the top-tier prospects this team desperately needs (defense or otherwise) because he'll keep this team just good enough to miss out on a top 3-4 lottery pick as Dumars did with the Pistons. Holland has to go for the full on rebuild to occur.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

The Wings have talent the way a flat tire still has air in it.

Kenny keeps the tires inflated just enough to keep us out of the top-tier of the draft lottery.

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Not nearly enough to be relevant, at least.

Yep, even the 1978 Red Wings had talent. Dale McCourt, Reed Larson, Vaclav Nedomansky, Nick Libett, Jim Rutherford.

And the 1984 Red Wings - Steve Yzerman (87 points), Ron Duguay (80 points), John Ogrodnick (78 points), Reed Larson (62 points), Brad Park, Ken Holland (3 GP). 

Not nearly enough, but comparable to the talent on today's Wings I'd say.

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

This tweener situation that Holland has gotten us into is the same situation that Dumars got the Pistons into. Kenny, like Joe, refuses to press the reset button and start over. Kenny will continue to float along with the core roster he has, adding middling veteran free agents here and there. He won't get the top-tier prospects this team desperately needs (defense or otherwise) because he'll keep this team just good enough to miss out on a top 3-4 lottery pick as Dumars did with the Pistons. Holland has to go for the full on rebuild to occur.

Stan Van Gundy is also using the Dumars / Holland strategy.  It is frustrating that none of our pro teams in need of a proper rebuild will commit to doing it correctly.

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