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Sydney_Fife

2017 Pistons Offseason Thread

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I agree that this team needs a veteran presence or two.  I seriously question identifying the two current max players as cornerstones on which to build.  Do they need directed or do they need much more than that?  One can't play at the end of close games because he's too much of a liability.  The other doesn't have the stamina and he's been an enigma in both of his home towns already.

And if Pope gets his max deal in Detroit, I will seriously question that as well.

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5 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I agree that this team needs a veteran presence or two.  I seriously question identifying the two current max players as cornerstones on which to build.  Do they need directed or do they need much more than that?  One can't play at the end of close games because he's too much of a liability.  The other doesn't have the stamina and he's been an enigma in both of his home towns already.

And if Pope gets his max deal in Detroit, I will seriously question that as well.

The Rasheed Wallace analogy isn't perfect either. No-one ever questioned Rasheed's ability to do pretty much anything on a basketball court. On the other hand, how is a veteran presence going to help Andre do many of the things he just can't do - which is to say put the ball in the hoop with adequate percentage on anything other than a put back or make free throws? Maybe if he played with an Isaiah and a Laimbeer they would whip his azz into playing some D, or maybe he'd just tweet about how abused he was and demand a trade.

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10 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

The Rasheed Wallace analogy isn't perfect either. No-one ever questioned Rasheed's ability to do pretty much anything on a basketball court. On the other hand, how is a veteran presence going to help Andre do many of the things he just can't do - which is to say put the ball in the hoop with adequate percentage on anything other than a put back or make free throws? Maybe if he played with an Isaiah and a Laimbeer they would whip his azz into playing some D, or maybe he'd just tweet about how abused he was and demand a trade.

The other thing with Wallace is that he landed in an awfully stable environment where he could be a complimentary piece.  Drummond and Jackson are paid to be more than complimentary.

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55 minutes ago, Casimir said:

The other thing with Wallace is that he landed in an awfully stable environment where he could be a complimentary piece.  Drummond and Jackson are paid to be more than complimentary.

Yes. thinking back - it was exactly one of Rasheed's issues in Portland that he chaffed under the expectations that he would take on leadership of the team.

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rasheed wallace was a 7 footer who could shoot, play in the post, and was a great defender.  the only thing he has in common with drummond is that they are both tall.

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6 minutes ago, Buddha said:

rasheed wallace was a 7 footer who could shoot, play in the post, and was a great defender.  the only thing he has in common with drummond is that they are both tall.

And if I recall correctly, even with all that veteran leadership around him, he was still criticized for inconsistent effort pretty regularly in the years after the championship run.

Though TBF, I suspect we wanted more from Rasheed than his stamina limit could provide. 

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he did have inconsistent effort.  he was also a flake.

but he had serioua talent that andre simply doesnt have.  andre can jump and he's tall.  but sheed was coordinated and played great help defense.  andre isnt close to that.  he's simply not that coordinated.

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9 minutes ago, Buddha said:

he did have inconsistent effort.  he was also a flake.

but he had serioua talent that andre simply doesnt have.  andre can jump and he's tall.  but sheed was coordinated and played great help defense.  andre isnt close to that.  he's simply not that coordinated.

No argument on that.

though I guess I would say Andre does have decent gross motor speed and co-ordination, but his fine motor just isn't there for putting the ball in the hoop.  I think I've mentioned it before but Drummond's body kind of reminds me of Bob Lanier's, but he doesn't have a bit of Lanier's finesse. It's weird how people can have such variance between their coarse and fine motor control skills. Must be a whole different set of genes.

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33 minutes ago, Buddha said:

he did have inconsistent effort.

There you go.  More in common with each other than we thought.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

he did have inconsistent effort.  he was also a flake.

but he had serious talent that andre simply doesnt have.  andre can jump and he's tall.  but sheed was coordinated and played great help defense.  andre isnt close to that.  he's simply not that coordinated.

I don't believe anywhere that I said they're the same player. It was a point made simply that surrounded by the right people, Sheed flourished, and the team had success. His stats were even down from the Portland years. But he was happier in the Detroit situation, at least that's what it looked like to me. And next to Big Ben, our Defense took off like a rocket...

He was still a flake though...

I'm not talking about similar skillsets. I'm talking about similar mental/ personality issues. Problems with motivation/ effort/ mental toughness.

All I am saying is that, in order for us to maximize whatever we can get out of AD, I believe he will need to be surrounded by the right people. Maybe he'll give more game effort, with the right veteran push. Work harder, and make serious efforts to improve defensively, surrounded by the right people. It's my belief he needs to be surrounded by excellent defending teammates to get the best out of him.

This isn't a great situation. But at 23, the "light bulb" could still turn on for him. We're currently, sort of stuck in the "all we can hope for" situation. Or we dump him for $0.10 on the dollar.

I prefer hoping SVG can surround him with the right players/ turn that "light bulb" on, rather than dumping him.

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I think we saw at the deadline and will see this summer how little trade value Drummond actually has. 

How many teams are going to line up to trade for an albatross of a contract? 25 million per year to rebound and do little else. 

Boston is the perfect fit for him. Other than that I don't see many teams where he would truly be a good fit. 

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14 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

I don't believe anywhere that I said they're the same player. It was a point made simply that surrounded by the right people, Sheed flourished, and the team had success. His stats were even down from the Portland years. But he was happier in the Detroit situation, at least that's what it looked like to me. And next to Big Ben, our Defense took off like a rocket...

He was still a flake though...

I'm not talking about similar skillsets. I'm talking about similar mental/ personality issues. Problems with motivation/ effort/ mental toughness.

All I am saying is that, in order for us to maximize whatever we can get out of AD, I believe he will need to be surrounded by the right people. Maybe he'll give more game effort, with the right veteran push. Work harder, and make serious efforts to improve defensively, surrounded by the right people. It's my belief he needs to be surrounded by excellent defending teammates to get the best out of him.

This isn't a great situation. But at 23, the "light bulb" could still turn on for him. We're currently, sort of stuck in the "all we can hope for" situation. Or we dump him for $0.10 on the dollar.

I prefer hoping SVG can surround him with the right players/ turn that "light bulb" on, rather than dumping him.

The light bulb isn't coming on. He's 24, but he is about to finish his 5th NBA season. He's 3 years deep now with SVG. 

We have seen little to no improvement in free throw shooting and defense. 

We have seen improvement in the post game, but still is awful. 

He cant play in crunch time. He can't shoot free throws. He can't guard other teams bigs. He is an extremely overrated player that we have chosen to build around. And here we sit at 35-42 in an absolutely awful conference. 

Im willing to give Jackson another go because he was hurt. And he has no trade value. 

Drummond should be the first guy moved. He actually does have some value. Boston would be the perfect fit. Make the damn call!

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1 hour ago, Sydney_Fife said:

 

Drummond should be the first guy moved. He actually does have some value. Boston would be the perfect fit. Make the damn call!

A 1st and Jordan Mickey--GET R DUNNNN!!!!

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The most logical trade for Drummond right now.  A swap with another team who also has someone on a bad deal and is under performing compared to that deal.

Make that deal and hope the new guy improves with the change of scenery, new coaching staff, different system, etc.  

I think the odds are better you can turn Drummond into something useful.

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it only takes one team to fall in love with a guy or to think they have the right people to take advantage of his talents.  it could be that reggie and andre are the applea of some other gm's eyes.

i doubt it but it could happen.

how many years does andre have to be in the league before we stop thinking he'll suddenly become a hard working, lunchpail kind of guy who plays hard all - or most - of the time?

i mean, he's got his money.  what incentive does an unmotivated player need?  leopards dont usually change their spots.

imo, the only possible answer is a different coach.  

i think svg has to go.  the players arent playing for him and from my untrained eye it doesnt appear the pistons have adapted to 2017 nba three point free for all baaketball.  svg had a rep as a great coach, but it may be that he used to be a great coach and now he's not.

im not sure there is any evidence he can evaluate talent.  i think he has to go.  if he werent gm he would certainly be gone after this embarassing year.

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How many different coaches has Dre had now? How many different styles? You aren't changing what he is and if SVG can't get him to work hard I'm not sure any coach will.

As for the statement that SVG has not adapted to the "2017 three point free for all", that just seems odd to me since he is often credited with having really created that style with his Orlando teams that Golden State has now perfected. I think it's less that he hasn't adapted to that style and more that 1) SVG-GM hasn't gotten the right players for it, both talent-wise and mentality-wise 2) SVG-Coach is having trouble connecting to the Millenial athlete, or at least the personality types that SVG-GM has given him, with his coaching style.

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I've seen quite a few big men like this over the years, guys who can own the paint any given night but seem to never put forth 100% effort.  Benoit Benjamin, Joe Barry Carrol, Vin Baker, Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Favors and now Drummond--all underperformed to their potential.  It is tough to say if there is a fix for Drummond, just as it is tough to say that there is no fixing him at 24.

 

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7 hours ago, Betrayer said:

How many different coaches has Dre had now? How many different styles? You aren't changing what he is and if SVG can't get him to work hard I'm not sure any coach will.

As for the statement that SVG has not adapted to the "2017 three point free for all", that just seems odd to me since he is often credited with having really created that style with his Orlando teams that Golden State has now perfected. I think it's less that he hasn't adapted to that style and more that 1) SVG-GM hasn't gotten the right players for it, both talent-wise and mentality-wise 2) SVG-Coach is having trouble connecting to the Millenial athlete, or at least the personality types that SVG-GM has given him, with his coaching style.

What is a millenial athlete?  Is Andre Drummond any less of a flake than Dwight Howard?  SVG got to the finals with that guy.  Was Rashard Lewis any more of a psychological winner than Tobias Harris?  SVG yells and screams and wears out his welcome with NBA players.  They guys ten years ago in Orlando didnt like it anymore than the guys in Miami any more than the guys in Detroit.

I don't think its a generational thing, I think SVG bet it all on a Reggie/Andre pick and roll and Reggie can't roll and Andre half asses his picks.  The team's offense is pretty predictable and predictably easy to stop.

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3 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Has a 14 and 14 guy ever had as much **** talked about him as Drummond has?

Then he should be easy to trade, right?

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3 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Then he should be easy to trade, right?

And you will be the first to complain they didn't get enough. 

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