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Sydney_Fife

Game 20: Pistons @ Celtics

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Watched Sam Dekker (Houston) in action against Golden State last night.  Very impressive.  Second year in the NBA, and he performs like a vet.  Love to see one of our rooks -- Ellenson, Gbinije, SJ -- develop like that.  Kid can play, and plays hard.

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I think the only thing you can really kill Stan for is his handling of Josh Smith and maybe even his handling of the Monroe situation. That said I think both moves allowed him to put his stamp on the organization in his own way and they were difficult choices at the time. The rest I think is just the ebbs and flows of being a general manager. Win some lose some and the end result is what your judged on. Hard to give him much worse than a B+ when you look at where we are today and where we were when he started.

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7 hours ago, DaBishop said:

I think the only thing you can really kill Stan for is his handling of Josh Smith and maybe even his handling of the Monroe situation. That said I think both moves allowed him to put his stamp on the organization in his own way and they were difficult choices at the time. The rest I think is just the ebbs and flows of being a general manager. Win some lose some and the end result is what your judged on. Hard to give him much worse than a B+ when you look at where we are today and where we were when he started.

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The first year was a total mess of a roster thanks to Joe D. He did inherit a pretty good cap situation though outside of Smith. J Smoove was going to be difficult to trade before he took the court under SVG. His value had plummeted after his first season in Detroit. There were rumors Sacramento wanted him for 2 deadweight contracts, but there was also buzz we had to attach a first rounder to get rid of him. I think SVG was prudent to try to get something out of Smith before shipping him off for spare parts. Especially considering Monroe was a year away from free agency. Obviously it didn't work and we cut/stretched him. Just hard for me to rip that decision when the first year was a rebuild and all we were gonna get for him was deadweight. Could've saved a few million per year, but with the cap increases I think it wouldve made a pretty minimal difference honestly.  

As for Monroe, SVG was right not to sign him to an extension knowing he wasn't a fit next to Drummond. It was difficult to trade him because the team acquiring him wouldn't get his full Bird rights. They really weren't going to get anything of value for him, so letting him walk and using the money saved to improve the roster turned out really well. Monroe is a very awkward player in today's NBA. Pretty good low post guy that can make free throws and pass, but he can't stretch the court at all and is slow on defense. Not a bad 1 v 1 defender, but can't protect the rim. Really is a center but doesn't rebound or block shots well enough to start. I really do understand why Kidd uses him off the bench. Can be the backup center and play power forward against bigger lineups. Would be a classic old school NBA power forward.... and in today's league that just doesn't work. 

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I would give SVG an A- and it would be an A if not for the Stanley Johnson early returns. The first year they went 27-27 after getting rid of Smith. The second year they won 44 games and made the playoffs despite the East being the deepest its ever been. This year they're 11-10 without their leading scorer while playing one of the toughest schedules. 

Harris for Jennings and Ilyasova

Morris and Bullock for a future second!

Jackson for Augustin and Singler! 

Those are steals. Not gonna find many better trades than that in a short window. 

And remember, we had Smith, Monroe, and Drummond. We kept one and let the other 2 walk. Drummond was an All-Star last year, Monroe is coming off the bench in Milwaukee, and Smith is in China. 

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Impossible to judge smith/monroe moves because we dont know what was available in trade.

But letting monroe walk for nothing and stretching smith did not bring the team anything in return.  Especially monroe.

Draft returns are too early to call, even stanley.  He's only 20.

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11 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Impossible to judge smith/monroe moves because we dont know what was available in trade.

But letting monroe walk for nothing and stretching smith did not bring the team anything in return.  Especially monroe.

Draft returns are too early to call, even stanley.  He's only 20.

We got cap room to improve the roster. We weren't going to get anything for Monroe since the acquiring team wasn't going to get his Bird rights. Weren't going to get anything for Smiff besides spare parts. 

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4 hours ago, Sydney_Fife said:

We got cap room to improve the roster. We weren't going to get anything for Monroe since the acquiring team wasn't going to get his Bird rights. Weren't going to get anything for Smiff besides spare parts. 

You dont know that.  And spare parts for smith are off the books now while smith is not.

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I get why SVG didn't trading Smith for junk, but at the end of the day it was the wrong move.

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13 minutes ago, DaBishop said:

I get why SVG didn't trading Smith for junk, but at the end of the day it was the wrong move.

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I'm still of the opinion that stretching Smith wasn't wise.  What have they done with that cap room in the meantime?  Sign Marjanovic?

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I'm still of the opinion that stretching Smith wasn't wise.  What have they done with that cap room in the meantime?  Sign Marjanovic?

Exactly.  This is the most puzzling move SVG has made in mind.  Player evaluation for the draft or in trades is hard and GM's get that wrong all the time.  But the Smith contract is just a financial decision that was fairly obvious I thought.  We weren't going to contend in the near future so why not get that contract off the books as soon as possible?

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The Pistons spent $23.9M on first year salaries in free agency this year.  Pretty much every penny they had avaialble.

Smith was making $13.5M per.  Stretched he is making $5.3M for a difference of $8.2M.

$23.9M minus the $8.2M created by stretching Smith would have meant they only had $15.7M to spend this year.

This years salaries of the three players they signed this year.

Leuer - $10.9M

Smith - $6M

Boban - $7M

So they couldn't sign Boban this year, no biggie.  But they couldn't sign Smith and Leuer either.  They would have to pick one or the other.  Maybe they could talk one into taking less, or both splitting the difference.  But you're talking about $1.2M which isn't chump change.  Plus by taking a lower base year salary, they are screwing their future years raises since they are a percentage based off of the base year.

Stretching Smith sucked.  But after not trading him it was the best option, unfortunately.  

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4 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Smith was making $13.5M per.  Stretched he is making $5.3M for a difference of $8.2M.

I thought the difference was closer to $5M than $8M.  I'm not doubting you, I have no doubt you are on top of that more than me.  I was under the impression the Pistons really didn't gain much leverage from it.

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I thought the difference was closer to $5M than $8M.  I'm not doubting you, I have no doubt you are on top of that more than me.  I was under the impression the Pistons really didn't gain much leverage from it.

It probably was last year because the Pistons can offset some of his strech amount by the salary another team pays him.  Not a strict 1:1 ratio but they do get some relief.

The problem is, Smith wasn't playing for anyone this summer so there was no offset.  

EDIT: That would give them more space, not less.  Stupid early Sunday morning.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, Deleterious said:

The Pistons spent $23.9M on first year salaries in free agency this year.  Pretty much every penny they had avaialble.

Smith was making $13.5M per.  Stretched he is making $5.3M for a difference of $8.2M.

$23.9M minus the $8.2M created by stretching Smith would have meant they only had $15.7M to spend this year.

This years salaries of the three players they signed this year.

Leuer - $10.9M

Smith - $6M

Boban - $7M

So they couldn't sign Boban this year, no biggie.  But they couldn't sign Smith and Leuer either.  They would have to pick one or the other.  Maybe they could talk one into taking less, or both splitting the difference.  But you're talking about $1.2M which isn't chump change.  Plus by taking a lower base year salary, they are screwing their future years raises since they are a percentage based off of the base year.

Stretching Smith sucked.  But after not trading him it was the best option, unfortunately.  

Sounds like you have changed your mind on this.  I remember you being against it when it happened.  

We also could have not signed Baynes last year,  freeing up another $6.5 million.  Not having Smith would suck.  Not having Leuer would suck more.   But we can sign a different Smith or Leuer once the Smith contract is off the books.  And what is the most we have given up?  Maybe a second round loss in the playoffs this year instead of a first round loss?  

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I'm pretty much neutral on how they handled Smith's $$$, but it is impossible to look at it purely from this year's FA crop and get a full perspective.

If SVG didn't have the option of signing Baynes, or really any quality backup big, don't you think he drafts Turner instead of Johnson?

He drafts Turner, then he doesn't need to sign either of Baynes or Boban.  He can probably go cheaper on the last big he needs and maybe sweet talk Jameer Nelson into finishing his career in Detroit at a bit of a discount.  Bullock and Hilliard get Johnson's burn.  Just a thought.

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26 minutes ago, Hart said:

Sounds like you have changed your mind on this.  I remember you being against it when it happened.  

We also could have not signed Baynes last year,  freeing up another $6.5 million.  Not having Smith would suck.  Not having Leuer would suck more.   But we can sign a different Smith or Leuer once the Smith contract is off the books.  And what is the most we have given up?  Maybe a second round loss in the playoffs this year instead of a first round loss?  

Yeah, I would have been tempted not to stretch him but doing so was clearly the right choice.  

Baynes was not optional last year.  If they don't sign Baynes then your only other C is Anthony.  You cant play Anthony 15 MPG and expect him to hold up and compete.  

If they didn't stretch Smith this would have been the last year for his salary.  Meaning this summer they would be free of his deal.  Lets look at the difference in cap space.

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So the answer is, $0.

Without Smith they could only spend the MLE and with him stretched they can only spend the MLE.  

Now, if Baynes opts out that might create $1M in cap space for them.  Big deal.

One area the stretch might hurt is the luxury tax.  Which the Pistons are up against with a big KCP extension.  There are some ramifications to the team for being over the luxury tax.  Tougher restrictions on trades, etc.  But for the most part its Gores wallet that takes the beating in penalites for being over the tax line.  

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8 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

I'm pretty much neutral on how they handled Smith's $$$, but it is impossible to look at it purely from this year's FA crop and get a full perspective.

If SVG didn't have the option of signing Baynes, or really any quality backup big, don't you think he drafts Turner instead of Johnson?

He drafts Turner, then he doesn't need to sign either of Baynes or Boban.  He can probably go cheaper on the last big he needs and maybe sweet talk Jameer Nelson into finishing his career in Detroit at a bit of a discount.  Bullock and Hilliard get Johnson's burn.  Just a thought.

They could have done all of this with or without Smith stretched.  

The draft is before free agency, so its not like they had Baynes on the books blocking a drafted Turner.  

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4 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

They could have done all of this with or without Smith stretched.  

The draft is before free agency, so its not like they had Baynes on the books blocking a drafted Turner.  

Just saying that perhaps SVG felt he could do better signing a big with the money he had than signing a SF after the draft--no?

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3 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

Just saying that perhaps SVG felt he could do better signing a big with the money he had than signing a SF after the draft--no?

I think he drafts SJ no matter what.

I can't see a backup big man stopping me from drafting Turner if he is the guy I like.  This is why I'm such a big fan of BPA instead of need when it comes to the draft.

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19 hours ago, Sydney_Fife said:

 

 Can be the backup center and play power forward against bigger lineups. Would be a classic old school NBA power forward.... and in today's league that just doesn't work. 

People always say this about guys like Monroe, Okafor etc, but to me a classic old school PF plays defense. 

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18 hours ago, Buddha said:

Impossible to judge smith/monroe moves because we dont know what was available in trade.

But letting monroe walk for nothing and stretching smith did not bring the team anything in return.  Especially monroe.

Draft returns are too early to call, even stanley.  He's only 20.

I don't think stretching Smith hurt us at all. You could argue it only brought us Boban I guess though, lol

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13 hours ago, Casimir said:

I'm still of the opinion that stretching Smith wasn't wise.  What have they done with that cap room in the meantime?  Sign Marjanovic?

Would it have let us do anything more though? We are over the cap by a good chunk right? So yes, the Boban move was probably the wrong use of the money, but that's what you criticize, not the Smith move IMO 

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30 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

I'm pretty much neutral on how they handled Smith's $$$, but it is impossible to look at it purely from this year's FA crop and get a full perspective.

If SVG didn't have the option of signing Baynes, or really any quality backup big, don't you think he drafts Turner instead of Johnson?

He drafts Turner, then he doesn't need to sign either of Baynes or Boban.  He can probably go cheaper on the last big he needs and maybe sweet talk Jameer Nelson into finishing his career in Detroit at a bit of a discount.  Bullock and Hilliard get Johnson's burn.  Just a thought.

Yah, I don't buy any of this though

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1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

I think he drafts SJ no matter what.

I can't see a backup big man stopping me from drafting Turner if he is the guy I like.  This is why I'm such a big fan of BPA instead of need when it comes to the draft.

I'll buy this, as he seemed pretty committed to drafting SJ then as he seems committed to seeing his development through today.

But . . . It's hard to believe that he wouldn't give Turner even just a lttle more of a look if he knew he was working with quite a bit less cash. 

BPA heard.

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