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Sydney_Fife

Game 20: Pistons @ Celtics

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1 minute ago, Hart said:

He is a bit of a one trick pony but as far as I'm concerned, so is Morris.  And Harris does that one trick (scoring) very well and in a multitude of ways.   And he doesn't turn the ball over.  He is a very valuable player.  Again, for some reason, I think this board severely underrates him.  We don't make the playoffs last year without him and we don't make the playoffs this year without him.  

I like Morris better as a defender, and would really like him coming off the bench. 

Harris doesn't turn the ball over largely because he doesn't pass much as his 1.5 AST over his career shows.  But yes, at least he doesn't think he needs to handle the ball a ton.

I valued Stackhouse when he was a Piston, but I was also OK with him trading places with Rip.  I feel much the same about anticipating the trade that will eventually send Harris out of town.

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11 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

I like Morris better as a defender, and would really like him coming off the bench. 

Harris doesn't turn the ball over largely because he doesn't pass much as his 1.5 AST over his career shows.  But yes, at least he doesn't think he needs to handle the ball a ton.

I valued Stackhouse when he was a Piston, but I was also OK with him trading places with Rip.  I feel much the same about anticipating the trade that will eventually send Harris out of town.

I do think Morris is probably slightly better as a defender but not enough to make any kind of substantial difference.  Morris is not a rim protector at all as a 4 and also too slow to really guard most small forwards well.  His one advantage over Harris is he bodies up stronger guys a little better.  I do agree with you that I really like him coming off the bench.  He knows how to score in ISO situations and that fits a bench roll well in my opinion.  

Stackhouse was not near as efficient as Harris so I am not sure that is a good comparison.  Again, I could care less about how many assists Harris gets.  Sometimes, you just have to look at the role and fit of player.  Harris is out there to do one thing and that is score the ball.  He does this very well and he does it within the offense.  Another thing to consider is how guys fit next to RJ.  I think Johnson tends to dribble the air out of the ball so a guy like Harris who can score without constantly needing the ball is very valuable.  Same with KCP.  

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2 minutes ago, Hart said:

Harris is an efficient scorer.  You are likely going to be taking on a less efficient guy for the sake of a little bit more outside shooting if you swap him out.  Not really worth it.  

I don't really want to sell low on Johnson.  I just don't think we view him as a rotation player at this point.  It was a bad draft pick; it's no secret now.  We just have to move on.  If Johnson turns things around and surprises us at some point, then great.  But I think we just keep him on the bench at this point and give him spot minutes until he starts showing something in practice or the games that justify playing time.  

--I think we can do better than the 33.9% 3pt, 4.7 REB and 0.6 BLK we get from him at the 4.  It may not be this season, but it will be sometime IMO.  It isn't just about outside shooting, it is about him not doing that much of anything else.

--Johnson needs to go to the GR for an indefinite period of time to get some minutes.  Dumping him for next to nothing or leaving him on the bench with almost no hope of development just don't seem like good solutions to me.

--These kids are so young when they are drafted that it is just short of a crapshoot.  Booker could have easily been like Stauskas and needed two full seasons--plus part of another--to find his groove, but he was forced into an expanded role as a rookie due to injuries and he showed he was the best perimeter player of his draft (at that moment).  Whoever is giving the 'Zona kids advice is totally fired, as they've released a small army of reshmen and sophomores to the NBA in recent years that were horrifically underdeveloped.  Derrick Williams, Stanley Johnson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Grant Jerret, Aaron Gordon, Jerryd Bayless and Marcus Williams were all woefully prepared to play professional basketball their first few years in the league.  Some have been useful after that, some haven't.

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Future lineup

Jackson, KCP, Harris, Ellenson, Drummond

Future bench 

Morris, Leuer, Ish, Johnson, BOBAN, Hilliard, Gbinjie

 

Think Baynes walks. Bullock may take the QO and return next season. 

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6 minutes ago, Hart said:

Stackhouse was not near as efficient as Harris so I am not sure that is a good comparison.  Again, I could care less about how many assists Harris gets.  Sometimes, you just have to look at the role and fit of player.  Harris is out there to do one thing and that is score the ball.  He does this very well and he does it within the offense.  Another thing to consider is how guys fit next to RJ.  I think Johnson tends to dribble the air out of the ball so a guy like Harris who can score without constantly needing the ball is very valuable.  Same with KCP.  

Stackhouse wasn't asked to be efficient, he was asked to score on a bad team.  The result?  He set the mark for scoring in a season for the Franchise, where he also lead the league in points, and he also holds the team's 6th-highest single-season total.  Stack was traded just below his peak value, and we could have the chance to trade Harris right at his.

KCP is much more valuable because he draws the toughest backcourt assignment every night, as where Harris has deferred to Morris on the tough frontcourt assignment in the past.

And again, 34% 3pt shooting is not ideal when your secondary ability--rebounding--nets you 4.7 per contest. 

Johnson certainly is not the answer at this point in time, nor have I claimed that as a viable alternative.

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1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

I still say this team has a lot of room to grow.  Let them play a couple of years together before we start making trades.

Of course I would still listen to any offer.  I might even pull the trigger on some.  But this team was built with the idea all the players are in the same age range and locked into their deals.  They were built to grow and learn together.  

 

Agreed.  And after a few seasons, the outlook on who needs to be moved could be very different than it appears now.

Every game thread seems to conclude with near knee-jerk reactions about individual weaknesses, and suggestions about who needs to be replaced.  As I say, give it time, let some growth occur, and then we shall see.  I'm still curious about how the starting five with Reggie in place will perform.  Looking to last season and playoff performances is at best only suggestive.  IMHO, the growth prospects are exciting enough to stop worrying about present particulars.  Just as an example, KCP's shooting seems to be on the upside, much better than many on this board thought was possible.  Bottom line, positive individual changes are possible.  Patience, Pistons fans. 

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2 hours ago, Hart said:

 My gut is Drummond is what he is.  We might see slight improvements in free throw shooting and rim protection but not enough to make a huge difference.  I don't see KCP becoming Harden but

what I worry about with Drummond is that so much of his value comes from rebounding and there is a good chance that since he does not have the slimmer build of a Rodman or Wallace and does have the position discipline of a Laimbeer, he may be on the downside of his rebounding value once the youth  bounce is gone from his legs, which for a lot of guys starts as early as around 26. If he isn't improving in other aspects of his game by then he'll be a declining asset by the time some of the other guys are just hitting stride. He can't be fun for SVG. It has to be hard to stay coolly objective in evaluating the long term progress trends of a guy that generates so much short term frustration.

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Harris is definitely the guy I would try to move if I was looking to make a trade.  For all of the reasons Mickey mentioned.  

You guys are really dreaming if you think Ellenson is going to be playing serious minutes though.  I would be thrilled if he was able to take Baynes minutes next year.  I don't think Boban is going to be able to do it, just too slow on defense, he will get abused.  

No interest in trading SJ right now.  He has absolutely no value.  Maybe as a sweetener in a bigger trade, and that's fine.  But he is really cheap right now so I want to keep him around and attempt to develop him.  It's imperative that they start to develop some cheap talent.  They are not going to have any free agent money for the next 3-4 years so if they can develop two of Hilliard/Johnson/Gbinije/Ellenson it will be a huge help.  

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IMO Harris would be one of the last guys I'd like to deal because aside from Reggie, he's the only guy that can go and create his own shot off the dribble. 

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14 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Expect a bad game from KCP tonight.

 

The jinx worked.

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I think I have been as down on Johnson as anyone and I would not trade him because you won't get anything in return.

Just send him to the D-League and try to build him as a player.

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Is it too soon to say that SVG's drafting sucks? Good thing he's done well in free agency and trades, because otherwise we'd be the D-League all stars

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10 minutes ago, pyrotigers said:

Is it too soon to say that SVG's drafting sucks? Good thing he's done well in free agency and trades, because otherwise we'd be the D-League all stars

I really do think it is too early to tell.

SVG did not draft kids that are helping us immediately, true enough, but I like his strategy so far.

His picks--no first/Dinwiddie, Johnson/Hilliard last year and Ellenson/Gbinjie this year may be light on return so far but it is hard to fault him a ton.

--Not having a first-rounder that first year, SVG snagged an injured lottery ticket in the form of a 6'6 PG.  Dinwiddie did not pan out, and a few guys taken behind him have--Grant, Jokik, Powell and especially Clarkston--so it is fair to hold SVG accountable for that, I guess.  Picking an injured guy in the second round for a team that is never making the playoffs--even with Clarkston's great rookie campaign--isn't the worst thing we've seen out of a Pistons GM, though.  As much as Dinwiddie sucked for the Pistons, he was a first-team All-Pac 12 selection as a sophomore before the ACL went out his junior year.  In theory, his success in college should have translated better in the NBA--but it didn't work out, at least not yet.

--Last year's pick of Johnson has a lot of fans angry right now, given the (predictable?) success of Booker and Turner, who were drafted right behind.  Kaminsky, Lyles and Winslow have also shown more than Johnson so far, but not to the extreme that Booker and Turner have.  SVG drafted for need, as a team that hadn't made the playoffs since Bush was POTUS, instead of BPA--which many of us here agree is always the best draft strategy.

--SVG followed up that pick with Hilliard, a low-ish ceiling swingman with a fluid stroke, mid-range game and willingness to play defense.  If you look at the second round that year, you'll see that there are very few guys that have played NBA minutes so far that were drafted after Darrun--so good pickup IMO.

--Henry Ellenson was not a pick I loved come draft day.  Like a few others on this board, I really wanted a 3&D wing with that pick.  Ellenson was praised universally as perhaps the best value pickup of the draft--a 19-year-old 6'11 PF with three-point range, shot blocking ability and a track record of rebounding (SSS, yes).  SVG signed two bigs for not insignificant money that summer as well, and it became apparent that he didn't want to repeat last year's mistake of throwing a teenager into a playoff rotation.  In two games at GR Ellenson is averaging 15/12.5/.5, and as SVG hinted he's been a bit of a mixed bag.  But a teenager putting up those kind of numbers in the NBADL is fairly encouraging, IMO, so it is hard to be down on SVG for the Ellenson pick when you consider the lack of contribution of the players drafted behind him and immediately in front of him.

--Gbinije was another low-risk scratch-off ticket taken in the mid-second.  Like Hilliard, he was an older swingman with lots of tools but none that particularly stuck out.  His defense, range and secondary facilitator potential make him look quite a bit better than most of the players taken in the second round this year.  SVG has discussed trying to find playing time for him with the press at some point last month, but so far that hasn't happened.  He hasn't been especially impressive in his two GR games offensively, but it is also very likely that he is a 3&D guy when it is all said and done instead of the multi-dimensional threat he was at Syracuse. 

So far, the theme has been drafting young players that can be (theoretically) built on as core players in the first round, and draft experienced guys with a variety of tools in the second round.  SVG has appeared to have gambled more on his own scouting than going by what happens the weeks leading up to the draft at the combines.  For Tigers fans, this may sound all too familiar but given the FAs and roster players he's picked up off the scrap heap, I have to believe in his eye for talent and team chemistry to fit his system so far.

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1 hour ago, pyrotigers said:

Is it too soon to say that SVG's drafting sucks? Good thing he's done well in free agency and trades, because otherwise we'd be the D-League all stars

Yes

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Harris is the only one I would even entertain trading mainly because he's probably the most one dimensional player in the starting 5 but then again, he's one of the few Pistons who can create his own shot with any consistency and he's probably their most efficient scorer.  They shouldn't deal Morris because his contract is a big luxury to have and they need his toughness, can't deal KCP because he's their most well rounded player and by far their best defender and energy player, can't deal Reggie because he's their lead PG and can't deal Stanley because it makes no sense to deal him at low value.

The only other one that might make some sense is Andre because of his leaguewide reputation as an All Star big man, that contract and his wild inconsistencies from game to game.  He would probably garner a return that would make it worth dealing him, what that return could be I have no idea.

As Del said, it's probably best just to ride it out with this group for a couple of years and see where that takes us.  There's so much youth that you'd have to think that there's plenty of room for growth.

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23 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Once we trade Andre, Ellenson and a pick for Cousins we should be fine. 

One of the trades I would snap-call on.

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I think I predicted 12-8 but I can live with 10-10.

I think we all can considering a week or two ago 7-13 8-12 looked like real possibilities.

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I think Morris has great trade value at his contract, he's not the player Harris is, and his defense is supremely over-rated on this board. If we can use his contract to upgrade our PF position then we should do so immediately. In the meantime, the teams best and the 2nd most used line-up this year has been replacing Morris with Leuer and moving Harris to the 3(I think I heard on "Lock'd on Pistons" that lineup givest up 96 pp100 as opposed to 110 pp100 for the starting lineup) That should be the starting line-up with Morris moved to the bench. In addition it would put our second best rebounder on the court more, something we sorely need.

Del is also 100% right in thinking you guys are super pie in the sky if you think Ellenson is our starting PF next year. He's at least 2 years from that IMO.

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also, let's not kill Harris for his 33% 3PT shooting 19 games into the year since 20 games into the year he's now at 35%. It's too soon to make any pronouncements on that stat.

 

And let's also not overblow it regardless....he hits 2 of the shots that he missed and he's a 38%. Do you suddenly think he's a far superior player because he scored 6 more points this year then he already has?

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I guess Stanley Johnson just sucks so bad that it colors the perspective, I have to agree that Dinwiddie and Ellenson actually do make sense when it's spelled out a bit more.

But man. Stanley Johnson. Let's not draft any more "athletic defenders" who can't do anything on offense. At least KCP has improved enough to be decent (and get 80 million a year or whatever stupid **** happens in the NBA now)

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