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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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They're going to ask for extensions on everything now because they all got covid....

or the excuse will be "We would have won in court but covid...."

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

what kind of moronic presidency shuffles its cabinet during its lame duck?

The kind that answers to a greater power. 

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Is it too soon to start wondering if Donald Trump is the worst American in history?  Like has anyone person born in our country done more damage to our nation?

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26 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Is it too soon to start wondering if Donald Trump is the worst American in history?  Like has anyone person born in our country done more damage to our nation?

Too soon was over by about March 2017.

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I mean I really am thinking about that... who has damaged and hurt more Americans?  Can’t really pinpoint the civil war on one person can you?  Robert E Lee for leading troops against US citizens?   

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28 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I mean I really am thinking about that... who has damaged and hurt more Americans?  Can’t really pinpoint the civil war on one person can you?  Robert E Lee for leading troops against US citizens?   

For me it would come down to the speculation about whether there really could have been a peace deal in Vietnam in 1967. Even if Nixon never existed and a deal was on the table who can say whether it would have held together. But if you take the less charitable view that RMN was indeed responsible for 6 more years of fighting in SE Asia and all the killing of both American and Vietnamese and the damage done to American domestic society and governance it would be a pretty close call.

But even then, we don't yet know how much damage Trump  has really done. If the GOP Senate ruins a Biden presidency and the public's anger over it a can be successfully deflected from the GOP and Trump or a Trump clone wins the Presidency in 2024 and competently dismantles the political institutions that Trump would have liked out of his way but was too ham handed to actually kill the 1st time around,  Nixon could still end up pale by comparison.

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

Is it too soon to start wondering if Donald Trump is the worst American in history?  Like has anyone person born in our country done more damage to our nation?

I don't think NIxon is close for those nominating him...

Trump wins hands down.

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4 hours ago, Oblong said:

I mean I really am thinking about that... who has damaged and hurt more Americans?  Can’t really pinpoint the civil war on one person can you?  Robert E Lee for leading troops against US citizens?   

I think it was Lee who, at the end of the war, told his troops to go home and be good citizens? Good Americans.

That's in stark contrast.

(the whole Lee thing is quite complex, partly due to his character I think. Jefferson Davis, maybe?)

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If you put half the eventual corona virus deaths on Trump's laziness and grift he will be hard to be worse than. I mean allowing his son-in-law to have middle men sell PPE a second time to get a cut of what taxpayers already bought when lives were at stake is tough to beat.

But, seizing Native American lands, enslaving millions for over 100 years, refusing to honestly apply the 14th and 15th amendments,. . ., depending on how you assign the blame there are a lot of Americans who would score "high".

I guess I won't be teaching in the 1776 Project.

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9 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

 

But even then, we don't yet know how much damage Trump  has really done. If the GOP Senate ruins a Biden presidency and the public's anger over it a can be successfully deflected from the GOP and Trump or a Trump clone wins the Presidency in 2024 and competently dismantles the political institutions that Trump would have liked out of his way but was too ham handed to actually kill the 1st time around,  Nixon could still end up pale by comparison.

Wouldn’t that make Mitch McConnell complicit as well or at least a co conspirator?
If the Trump/McConnell party hadn’t put power over country we wouldn’t be in this deep of a mess

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If you wanted to take it one step farther. Newt Gingrich who declared war on the opposition party which led to the Tea Party which in turn led to Trumpism.

This is the simplified answer, and it probably goes back a bit farther

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1 hour ago, CMRivdog said:

Wouldn’t that make Mitch McConnell complicit as well or at least a co conspirator?
If the Trump/McConnell party hadn’t put power over country we wouldn’t be in this deep of a mess

Fair argument, though OTOH, Mitch has no power of his own, he is only the creature of his caucus, you could also spread that blame 53 ways, well 52 - Mitt voted to impeach didn't he?

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13 hours ago, Oblong said:

Is it too soon to start wondering if Donald Trump is the worst American in history?  Like has anyone person born in our country done more damage to our nation?

Hold a minute, remember we need to judge based on our current environment (i.e. political correctness).

Over 10 presidents owned slaves, thus they were worse than Trump.

I think they claimed Cleveland raped a women and Clinton had sex with an intern, so they are worse.  Right there, he's gotta rank around 30th worse president at the worst.  Add in wars with Indians or brown people (Bush's, Obama) and he starts creeping up into the 20's.  

I can agree he's not our best though, FDR wore dresses as a kid and most people believe we have already had a gay president (can't remember who).  Carter is still out there building houses too. So without too much more research  he's ranked roughly 25th - 41st worst president of all time.

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Buchanan is the rumored gay one.  I would throw in Jackson and the Indians for sure as comparable.  

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13 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

I don't think NIxon is close for those nominating him...

Trump wins hands down.

Are we talking worst human in United States history or just worst President human?

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I actually don't know how high Trump ranks on a worst human list.  He is certainly the most screwed up public figure I have ever seen.  He really does have serious mental health problems.  I don't know that he ranks that high on the evil list.   

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1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Hold a minute, remember we need to judge based on our current environment (i.e. political correctness).

well, that was not Oblong's stated criteria, but for the sake of discussion....sure.

In any case, in terms of lives lost, it's hard to top a President that was involved a major war or epidemic. The leaves you pretty much with the Civil War, WWII, VN, Bush's wars in he ME, the influenza pandemic, and the CV19 epidemic.

Rob has nominated Jackson for the Indian pogroms.

History doesn't 'blame' Lincoln for the Civil War. I suppose the North could have allowed the Union to dissolve but then slavery would have continued for another 40-60 years - probably right up until mechanized farming obsoleted it, and who knows how many more lives would have been lost, though at that point by definition they would not have been 'American' lives. 

Almost no-one really sees any alternative to  WWII so we probably take that off the table.

Nixon has already been nominated for Vietnam  and all its repercussions.

Bush II's wars are harder to judge. Would there have been less chaos in the ME if Bush had not invaded Iraq? Almost certainly. Would it have been significantly less long term? That is really hard to say. But on the basis that Bush's escapades resulted in far more non-US than US casualties, he might skate on Rob's original premise.

That leaves the 1919 influenza pandemic. From what I've read Wilson was so focused on WWI (which did not have major impact on the US) that the federal government completely ignored the pandemic, which is estimated to have killed 675,000 Americans so maybe we need to nominate him after all. Without some research I haven't done I have no idea if there are even any estimates of how many lives a coordinated federal response might have saved and given the state of medical science at the time maybe not many - but I'd throw him in the mix. Plus he meets Ewsieg's criteria for being a terrible racist as well so I will hereby nominate him!

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7 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

You guys aren't being fair to Dick Cheney.

true in one sense, but for better or worse his sins accrue to W's account.

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