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chasfh

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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8 minutes ago, pfife said:

Do you see no difference between "using racism as a tool" and "calling out racism as a tool"?

I do, but is there a point where it flips?  Take a look at Flint.  You say Flint nationally and people will think of a poor, mostly black city with a water issue.  All true.  You have dem candidates today saying that the water is still bad.  It's not true, so why do they continue to say it?  Is it possible it's because it helps reaffirm to uneducated voters their belief that republicans hate black people?

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The guy actively sowing disunity for political gain, and then calling for unity for political cover, is rich.

It absolutely is.

5 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What does "as racists as people make him out to be mean?" Does he actually have to go on camera and say the N-word aloud to make him a full on racist? Is there a racism spectrum where at some point on the spectrum it is sorta ok? Also, he is a self admitted white nationalist, he said so himself at one of his rallies that he was. So we cannot use his own words now?

He did not say he was a white nationalist.  He is white and he called himself a nationalist.  Also, listen to his context on how he is describing nationalism and who he calls out (European nations) for their trade policies with us.  

I have been told that it is impossible to be white and not be racist.  If true, then there definitely is a spectrum and I definitely think there has to be some OK portion.  I'd say an OK portion is where you try to be aware of racism, try not to do anything racist, and always try to improve yourself and those around you.

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22 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I honestly don't understand the parsing of Trump's behaviors, as if the favorable take is significantly more appealing or justifiable or defensible that the more obvious take.

 

He isn't worth it, nor does he deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I agree.  He is an ignorant worthless douchebag and has been his whole life.  

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11 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I do, but is there a point where it flips?  Take a look at Flint.  You say Flint nationally and people will think of a poor, mostly black city with a water issue.  All true.  You have dem candidates today saying that the water is still bad.  It's not true, so why do they continue to say it?  Is it possible it's because it helps reaffirm to uneducated voters their belief that republicans hate black people?

I don't understand what you mean by "a point where it flips".    I suspect my answer is NO, there is not a point where it flips, but I don't really understand.

Also, why is it that "calling out racism" must be a tool to help "the left"?  Why can't it be that "the left" legitimately cares about his racism and it's impact on minorities?  Are you saying that I, a person on "the left" would be totally cool with racism from someone you think is on "the left"?

Dude I've hated neo-nazis way before this jerk-off became president.

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39 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I honestly don't understand the parsing of Trump's behaviors, as if the favorable take is significantly more appealing or justifiable or defensible that the more obvious take.

This.

Almost feels like there is a reverse-political correctness standard being applied to chill people from calling out what may be plainly obvious to them.

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10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This.

Almost feels like there is a reverse-political correctness standard being applied to chill people from calling out what may be plainly obvious to them.

The whole thrust of Trump and his GOP supporters has been an attempt to normalize the outrageous to where we stop noticing it and that reverse PC is exactly what they count on to make it work. There is always a lot of resistance among everyday people to admit that the waters are rising around them.

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26 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Right. When you refer to black women as dogs, when you talk about Mexicans as drug dealers/rapists/criminals, when you self-identify as a nationalist, when you get sued for refusing to rent housing to black people, when you tell women of color to "go back home", when you call African nations s*ithole countries, when you say "they don't look like Indians to me" in-regards to Native Americans, etc., etc., etc. that isn't the media making a narrative about you being a racist, that is you writing your own narrative.

If Fox News were around when George Wallace said "And I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" they would invite Tim Scott on TV to tell us all Wallace isn't racist and that this is just a concocted left-wing media narrative meant to smear him. It's the same playbook they and the right use to justify and defend Trump with.

I'll end with this as your first paragraph says a lot of things and your second paragraph sets it up that if I respond to it, i'm just defending him.    So, guess i'm "defending" Trump again.  

So, and i'm not saying i'm right, but Is it possible that Trump is such a low IQ person and altogether bad person, that stupid and mean things he says could be misconstrued as racists?  

Trump called Omarossa a dog.  I'm sure he wasn't the first to do that and we do know he regularly has called anyone he doesn't like that, white/black, man/women, it doesn't matter.  Is he just a bad person when he called white men that?  Outside of the fact that Omarossa is black, is there anything else that changes that from an inappropriate insult to a racial insult?

nationalist - did you forget to put 'white' in front of this?  Not saying I agree with it,  but is being a nationalist equal to racism now?  And if so, what evidence do you have for this outside of just saying it's dog whistle racism'?

Trump calls everything that he doesn't own a ****hole.  Have you ever seen his apartment?  I wouldn't be too worried if Trump thought I lived in a ****hole.

'They don't look like Indians' - You can see him saying it, can't you?  I know I can.  Nothing to defend him here, but I definitely can see Trump wanting to see a physical difference from himself in someone that he knows is getting an edge into a market he's in as well.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

He did not say he was a white nationalist.  He is white and he called himself a nationalist.  Also, listen to his context on how he is describing nationalism and who he calls out (European nations) for their trade policies with us.  

Trump is a self-declared nationalist with rhetoric and policies that state white individuals are preferred to non-whites, and the United States should be a dominant white country.  He will never say he's a white nationalist, but it's not hard to put two and two together and see that's what he is, and what he's stoking throughout the country.

That said - I feel bad that the kind of conservatism you and I used to talk about and defend in certain contexts has been hijacked by Trumpism.  Hopefully the GOP will embrace intellectual conservatism sometime in the future, and openly welcome people of all genders, races, and creeds.

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2 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

Trump is a self-declared nationalist with rhetoric and policies that state white individuals are preferred to non-whites, and the United States should be a dominant white country.  He will never say he's a white nationalist, but it's not hard to put two and two together and see that's what he is, and what he's stoking throughout the country.

I'd be curious to see an example of 'nationalism' being practiced worldwide (either current day or historical) that didn't have a racial component to it.

If it does exist or has existed in the past and it didn't have a racial component to it, it's likely the exception to the rule.

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48 minutes ago, pfife said:

I don't understand what you mean by "a point where it flips".    I suspect my answer is NO, there is not a point where it flips, but I don't really understand.

Also, why is it that "calling out racism" must be a tool to help "the left"?  Why can't it be that "the left" legitimately cares about his racism and it's impact on minorities?  Are you saying that I, a person on "the left" would be totally cool with racism from someone you think is on "the left"?

Dude I've hated neo-nazis way before this jerk-off became president.

We've talked about Ferguson recently so let's stay with that to help explain my point.  Is it possible that some on the left believe the science around the actual attack and know 'hands up, don't shoot' was a lie, but continue to say it (or simply allow others to repeat it without impunity) because it helps reinforce votes for their base?  If they do that, are they in fact using race as a tool for political gain and furthermore, with all that said, is that a racial component that has gone too far or is it OK as the left legitimately cares about racism?

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Do we want to equate select voices on the left utilizing Fergusen as a racist tool for the POTUS using the bully pupit of the free world to promote white nationalism?  Does anyone who doesn't approve of Trump's race baiting automatically a leftist?

No and no.

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What does Ferguson have to do with the words/actions of the President?

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24 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

What does Ferguson have to do with the words/actions of the President?

More whataboutism to normalize his abhorrent behavior and actions. 

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32 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

What does Ferguson have to do with the words/actions of the President?

It's easier to point fingers at others than to look in the mirror.

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6 minutes ago, tigerbomb13 said:

More whataboutism to normalize his abhorrent behavior and actions. 

Or you could read the conversation I was having with Pfife and see the context of why I was saying it...but yeah....I"m not saying I hate Trump more than you, so obviously I love him and hate minorities.

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5 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Or you could read the conversation I was having with Pfife and see the context of why I was saying it...but yeah....I"m not saying I hate Trump more than you, so obviously I love him and hate minorities.

It's the Ben Sasse defense. I'll say I don't like him, but when it comes down to it, I mostly agree with him.

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5 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Or you could read the conversation I was having with Pfife and see the context of why I was saying it...

Reading the conversation doesn't really clear up why it's relevant to this discussion.

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What I'm getting from this is "I don't like Trump, but I dislike Dems more so I'll vote for Trump", which is fine.  I don't see the need for the mental gymnastics.

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I'm gathering it's whataboutism. Democrats use Hands up, Don't shoot as a rallying tool. Michael Brown's mother did speak at the DNC even though all the physical evidence showed her son was shot justifiably. I would argue that pales in comparison to a Trump rally which is basically a Klan rally.

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6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm gathering it's whataboutism. Democrats use Hands up, Don't shoot as a rallying tool. Michael Brown's mother did speak at the DNC even though all the physical evidence showed her son was shot justifiably. I would argue that pales in comparison to a Trump rally which is basically a Klan rally.

Probably right

At the end of the day, as opposed to people feeling he is a racist being some sort of liberal conspiracy or because "the media", is it a radical suggestion to suggest that some folks feel the way they do about his words/actions because of his words/actions? 

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Seriously folks, for a bunch of people that say past comments matter, have you actually read anything I have ever wrote?

I did not vote for Trump in the last election (truth), before it was completely clear just how nuts he was (didn't realize the crazy scale could keep on going).  I won't be voting for him this time (guess I can't say truth as it didn't happen, but I certainly don't intend to and really hoping Bill Krystal's little project comes out strong.  I don't want him to win (partial truth, there is a part of me that would love to see folks crying again). 

I have a different take on what is going on politically though and where you have the anyone but Trump will win mantra I am skeptical and see a scenario where dems eat themselves up and we have to deal with Trump again.  One of the reasons for this is I think the left is using race as a tool.

My full argument is that what if Trump is not a racist, but just a really bad person.  I see comments above that says who really cares, but yet you certainly are jumping on me for pointing out a few things that might point to him being more of a dick than a racist.  The reason why I think that's important is because for white folks that lean republican, and might be outside of that 'OK' racist zone on the scale I talked about, see representatives of the democratic party saying things like "hands up, don't shoot" and say, hey, why are they lying about this...what else are they lying about?   Now that might sound funny as why would a person caring about if someone lies vote for Trump, but that's what ideology will do to folks.  While there was an initial outroar about #clintonbodycount, my facebook feed from my left leaning friends has been all about Robert Barr's dad was the guy that hired Epstein, obviously the fix is in!  The scary part is, while they complained about #clintonbodycount, they are reveling in this....almost like an ideology!

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17 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm gathering it's whataboutism. Democrats use Hands up, Don't shoot as a rallying tool. Michael Brown's mother did speak at the DNC even though all the physical evidence showed her son was shot justifiably. I would argue that pales in comparison to a Trump rally which is basically a Klan rally.

https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/457049-time-to-retire-ferguson-narrative

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10 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

My full argument is that what if Trump is not a racist, but just a really bad person.  I see comments above that says who really cares, but yet you certainly are jumping on me for pointing out a few things that might point to him being more of a dick than a racist.  

And, in kind, what I seem to be seeing is that people only believe Trump is a racist because of the liberal media.

Why is it so hard for you to simply acknowledge that people can have a different interpretation of his words/actions than you have? And that them having come to those conclusions isn't "the media?"

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Lets not forget the Central Park Five and the whole housing discrimination thing that well pre-dates Trump running for office.

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Yes ewsieg, Trump is a really bad person.  He is such a bad person, I don't really care that much that he is a racist.  Being racist is just part of the whole ugly package.  From reading your posts, I can tell that you are a strong Republican.  My impression is that you know that he sucks, but you are too proud to admit that your team produced such garbage so you are turning things around to blame the other side for some of it.  

It is so much better being an independent.  You should embrace it!

 

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