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chasfh

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If a spade is a spade, then let's use a stronger, more direct term than "white nationalism".

I think white nationalism is as direct as the other terms you're alluding to, plus Trump is on record saying he is a nationalist.

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3 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

I think white nationalism is as direct as the other terms you're alluding to, plus Trump is on record saying he is a nationalist.

I think the strength of the term depends on the audience you are speaking to.

In circles of educated and aware people, white nationalism is an extremely strong term.

For the majority of the American public, "racist" is likely stronger.

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8 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

I think white nationalism is as direct as the other terms you're alluding to, plus Trump is on record saying he is a nationalist.

I think white supremacist is more direct and descriptive. I fear "white nationalist" is getting watered down and is close to becoming neutral. Plus, it gives the red hats the opening Trump opened up for them: "OK, so I'm white and I'm a nationalist who wants America to be first, tell me what's the ****'s so bad about that?"

I'd prefer to see them try to wiggle out of "white supremacist".

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6 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

I think the strength of the term depends on the audience you are speaking to.

In circles of educated and aware people, white nationalism is an extremely strong term.

For the majority of the American public, "racist" is likely stronger.

IDK - I'd almost put that the other way. "White Nationalist" has a strong connotation of a person that not only harbors a racist worldview privately but is also highly likely to be willing to use violent means to bring that world view to fruition. So I take is as the much stronger term.

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26 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If a spade is a spade, then let's use a stronger, more direct, better descriptive term than "white nationalism".

I believe I heard Archie Bunker once say a spade is a spade...

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2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think white supremacist is more direct and descriptive. I fear "white nationalist" is getting watered down and is close to becoming neutral. Plus, it gives the red hats the opening Trump opened up for them: "OK, so I'm white and I'm a nationalist who wants America to be first, tell me what's the ****'s so bad about that?"

I'd prefer to see them try to wiggle out of "white supremacist".

"White supremacy" may be a more direct term, but its associations with slavery and lynchings make it a tough sell.  The Trump movement is based on nationalism and the belief that whites should be the dominant race in the United States -- hence my suggestion that the term "white nationalism" be emphasized and used to inform the average voter about what the core of MAGA is about.

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19 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

"White supremacy" may be a more direct term, but its associations with slavery and lynchings make it a tough sell.  The Trump movement is based on nationalism and the belief that whites should be the dominant race in the United States -- hence my suggestion that the term "white nationalism" be emphasized and used to inform the average voter about what the core of MAGA is about.

Tough sell to whom? The white supremacists? We have nothing they want to buy.

Tough sell to the rest of the American public who (publicly) reject white supremacy? I agree with you on that, but then again, instead of trying to package the bland new term to describe horrific old thinking for them, maybe they need to be reminded that the current crop of "white nationalists" are the philosophical descendants of those white supremacists who did lynch and did enslave when they had the legal cover to do so.

Today's climate may not be as extreme, but the thinking is the exact same updated to the current climate that, while it doesn't allow exactly lynching and slavery at this moment, is shifting the zeitgeist back along the continuum to an acceptance of more overt displays of supremacist thinking, enough so that people have felt comfortable publicly attaching their real names to it. And if you have any doubt about that, pick up a few red hat Facebook friends and get a load of the memes and comments they post under their names.

Maybe a tough sell is what the doctor ordered for these times.

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55 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

At the very least, he is a sociopath who uses racism as a tool.  I don't think the distinction between racism and using racism as a tool matters. Why does it matter to you if he is called racist or not?  

I guess i've always assumed a major difference between racism and white nationalism.  All white nationalists are racists where I don't think all racists are white nationalists.  I mention it as I do believe the media and the left have pushed a racism agenda onto Trump and unfortunately his tactic is to latently (and sometimes blatantly) embrace it, like a tool as you say.  This is horrible and disgusting and does not dutifully represent the office of the president.  But it is what it is.... we have Trump regardless.  So while I fully understand that he shouldn't do it and he started it, I don't understand why the media and left continue to feed it further, unless they are simply using it as a tool themselves.

NYT can't even put out an accurate headline because the left freaked out as they felt the headline alone didn't give a clear enough context of what he said in that speech vs what he's said and tweeted before.  Again, it was an accurate headline, that they backtracked from AND apologized for.  The article was full of context. 

edit: feel free to interchange white nationalism with white supremacy in my post.

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I think our media is pretty terrible, but I can't get behind suggestions that the media makes Trump say and do racist things.  The media is used as a scapegoat by politicians far too often to excuse themselves of bad behavior.

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The media hasn't pushed a racism agenda onto Trump. Trump has essentially invited media observation of his racism and they report on it. Definitely not the same thing.

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If the NYT ran a headline that said Trump is a Complete ******* Racist and His Racist Rhetoric Contributed to the Horrific Tragedy in El Paso that would be an accurate headline. Why would it be accurate, because the President is a racist and a self admitted one at that and that rhetoric was apart of the shooter's online manifesto. We cannot let the media normalize or rationalize what Trump is doing under the guise of "fair and impartial coverage."

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27 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I guess i've always assumed a major difference between racism and white nationalism.  All white nationalists are racists where I don't think all racists are white nationalists.  I mention it as I do believe the media and the left have pushed a racism agenda onto Trump and unfortunately his tactic is to latently (and sometimes blatantly) embrace it, like a tool as you say.  This is horrible and disgusting and does not dutifully represent the office of the president.  But it is what it is.... we have Trump regardless.  So while I fully understand that he shouldn't do it and he started it, I don't understand why the media and left continue to feed it further, unless they are simply using it as a tool themselves.

NYT can't even put out an accurate headline because the left freaked out as they felt the headline alone didn't give a clear enough context of what he said in that speech vs what he's said and tweeted before.  Again, it was an accurate headline, that they backtracked from AND apologized for.  The article was full of context. 

edit: feel free to interchange white nationalism with white supremacy in my post.

The media made him do it?

Really?

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Again, at no point have I ever said Trump isn't a racist.  As accurately pointed out, he has said/tweeted things that a reasonable person can draw that conclusion from.  I have argued before that he may not be as racist as people are making him out to be. But I think the current talk of white nationalism/white supremacy is a huge jump and that is what I was speaking to.  

Mr. TaterSalad - that headline is a little too long i'd say, but for an article about Trump's involvement in El Paso, it would be accurate.  The NYT article in question was focused specifically on a speech he made, where he called for unity.  If we need to satisfy the left, maybe just have every headline about Trump as simply "Trump is a Complete ***** Racist", then you can read the article to find out if he put more sanctions on China, met with a world leader, or had a big mac instead of a quarter pounder for dinner.

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31 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I guess i've always assumed a major difference between racism and white nationalism.  All white nationalists are racists where I don't think all racists are white nationalists.  I mention it as I do believe the media and the left have pushed a racism agenda onto Trump and unfortunately his tactic is to latently (and sometimes blatantly) embrace it, like a tool as you say.  This is horrible and disgusting and does not dutifully represent the office of the president.  But it is what it is.... we have Trump regardless.  So while I fully understand that he shouldn't do it and he started it, I don't understand why the media and left continue to feed it further, unless they are simply using it as a tool themselves.

NYT can't even put out an accurate headline because the left freaked out as they felt the headline alone didn't give a clear enough context of what he said in that speech vs what he's said and tweeted before.  Again, it was an accurate headline, that they backtracked from AND apologized for.  The article was full of context. 

edit: feel free to interchange white nationalism with white supremacy in my post.

Do you see no difference between "using racism as a tool" and "calling out racism as a tool"?

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5 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Again, at no point have I ever said Trump isn't a racist.  As accurately pointed out, he has said/tweeted things that a reasonable person can draw that conclusion from.  I have argued before that he may not be as racist as people are making him out to be. But I think the current talk of white nationalism/white supremacy is a huge jump and that is what I was speaking to.  

Mr. TaterSalad - that headline is a little too long i'd say, but for an article about Trump's involvement in El Paso, it would be accurate.  The NYT article in question was focused specifically on a speech he made, where he called for unity.  If we need to satisfy the left, maybe just have every headline about Trump as simply "Trump is a Complete ***** Racist", then you can read the article to find out if he put more sanctions on China, met with a world leader, or had a big mac instead of a quarter pounder for dinner.

The guy actively sowing disunity for political gain, and then calling for unity for political cover, is rich.

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11 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Again, at no point have I ever said Trump isn't a racist.  As accurately pointed out, he has said/tweeted things that a reasonable person can draw that conclusion from.  I have argued before that he may not be as racist as people are making him out to be. But I think the current talk of white nationalism/white supremacy is a huge jump and that is what I was speaking to.  

Mr. TaterSalad - that headline is a little too long i'd say, but for an article about Trump's involvement in El Paso, it would be accurate.  The NYT article in question was focused specifically on a speech he made, where he called for unity.  If we need to satisfy the left, maybe just have every headline about Trump as simply "Trump is a Complete ***** Racist", then you can read the article to find out if he put more sanctions on China, met with a world leader, or had a big mac instead of a quarter pounder for dinner.

What does "as racists as people make him out to be mean?" Does he actually have to go on camera and say the N-word aloud to make him a full on racist? Is there a racism spectrum where at some point on the spectrum it is sorta ok? Because to me, as the President of the United States, being sorta kinda racist versus being a full on Grand Wizard isn't ok. You are the President, you cannot be a racist at any level on the spectrum. You literally cannot be a bigot or a race baiter or a homophobe or a xenophobe or an Islamaphobe as President. None of that, at any level, is acceptable for a President of the United States.

Also, he is a self admitted white nationalist, he said so himself at one of his rallies that he was. So we cannot use his own words now?

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Meanwhile is Joe Walsh man enough to challenge Trump?

Quote
In Mr. Trump, I see the worst and ugliest iteration of views I expressed for the better part of a decade. To be sure, I’ve had my share of controversy. On more than one occasion, I questioned Mr. Obama’s truthfulness about his religion. At times, I expressed hate for my political opponents. We now see where this can lead. There’s no place in our politics for personal attacks like that, and I regret making them....

The fact is, Mr. Trump is a racial arsonist who encourages bigotry and xenophobia to rouse his base and advance his electoral prospects. In this, he inspires imitators.

Republicans should view Mr. Trump as the liability that he is: No matter his flag-hugging, or his military parades, he’s no patriot. In front of the world, he sides with Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence community. That’s dangerous. He encouraged Russian interference in the 2016 election, and he refuses to take foreign threats seriously as we enter the 2020 election. That’s reckless. For three years, he has been at war with our federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies, as he embraces tyrants abroad and embarrasses our allies. That’s un-American.

And despite what his enablers claim, Mr. Trump isn’t a conservative. He’s reckless on fiscal issues; he’s incompetent on the border; he’s clueless on trade; he misunderstands executive power; and he subverts the rule of law. It’s his poor record that makes him most worthy of a primary challenge.


Walsh goes on to describe the kind of candidate who could take on Trump:
 

Mr. Trump’s most vulnerable against a challenger who’d make the case for strong borders — instead of warning of “invaders,” dragging us down, turning neighbor against neighbor. A majority of Americans want fixes to our most basic problems.

We need someone who could stand up, look the president in the eye and say: “Enough, sir. We’ve had enough of your indecency. We’ve had enough of your lies, your bullying, your cruelty, enough of your insults, your daily drama, your incitement, enough of the danger you place this country in every single day. We don’t want any of this anymore, and the country certainly can’t stand four more years of it.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/opinion/joe-walsh-trump-primary.html

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Anybody who doubts the claim of Trump being a self admitted white nationalist, just watch this wink and a nod here. Calling himself a nationalist, while cleverly not using the word white, in front of a crowd of all white people sure sounds like an admission to me.

Can you imagine if Obama went on TV and said "You know what, I'm a Panther" without saying Black in front of Panther. The right would be rioting in the streets.

 

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7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I have argued before that he may not be as racist as people are making him out to be.

quote-when-someone-shows-you-who-they-are-believe-them-the-first-time-maya-angelou-0-84-87.jpg.62a7a857ad4ff1f4346e45e09d200a78.jpg

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2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The guy actively sowing disunity for political gain, and then calling for unity for political cover, is rich.

UnityTrump is analogous to TelepromterTrump - neither one represents who Trump really is.

TwitterTrump and RallyTrump are the real Trump.

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I honestly don't understand the parsing of Trump's behaviors, as if the favorable take is significantly more appealing or justifiable or defensible that the more obvious take.

 

He isn't worth it, nor does he deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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40 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The media hasn't pushed a racism agenda onto Trump. Trump has essentially invited media observation of his racism and they report on it. Definitely not the same thing.

Right. When you refer to black women as dogs, when you talk about Mexicans as drug dealers/rapists/criminals, when you self-identify as a nationalist, when you get sued for refusing to rent housing to black people, when you tell women of color to "go back home", when you call African nations s*ithole countries, when you say "they don't look like Indians to me" in-regards to Native Americans, etc., etc., etc. that isn't the media making a narrative about you being a racist, that is you writing your own narrative.

If Fox News were around when George Wallace said "And I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" they would invite Tim Scott on TV to tell us all Wallace isn't racist and that this is just a concocted left-wing media narrative meant to smear him. It's the same playbook they and the right use to justify and defend Trump with.

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