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41 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

 

I like football too, but if they can't fix the problem, I'm not willing to put anyone's mental future seriously at risk for my entertainment value. That went out with the Romans I think.

There are basically no sports with a zero percent concussion rate, so any of them put the players' mental future at risk. Not much outrage about people playing hockey, soccer, lacrosse etc. though. Can everyone play basketball? Are we going to cancel baseball when a few guys get beaned?

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If we're going to ban sports, we also need to ban driving, smoking, drinking, all drug use, the lumber and fishing industries...

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Just now, pyrotigers said:

If we're going to ban sports, we also need to ban driving, smoking, drinking, all drug use, the lumber and fishing industries...

Well, poor people participate in all of those things more often than rich people, so you must be right

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1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

There are basically no sports with a zero percent concussion rate, so any of them put the players' mental future at risk. Not much outrage about people playing hockey, soccer, lacrosse etc. though. Can everyone play basketball? Are we going to cancel baseball when a few guys get beaned?

but there are sports were the concussion rate is not so much higher than normal life - where it isn't zero either. That is the more applicable criterion. Canadian Hockey and 'scrimmage' sports (Football, Rugby) have a higher incidence, though in the NHL checking rules are already changing to be more inline with the international game - hitting your head is not really a required part of hockey. I'm curious but not sufficiently motivated to look up if concussion rates in NHL hockey have been higher than in the international game, though I imagine there are no reliable records to go on. Plus in hockey a player has a choice even as he plays whether he wants to play more like a Probert or a Gretzky whereas in football pretty much everyone takes impacts on the helmet regularly. Maybe Neon Deon being an exception! xD There is also the question of whether CTE is only the result of outright concussion or a cummulative of the lesser hits that are much more frequent in football than in other sports - which goes to the 'header' questions raised in soccer, though heading is relatively minor part of soccer - the game would go on fine without it.

The issues in football are unique enough not to imply "all sports"

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1 hour ago, pyrotigers said:

If we're going to ban sports, we also need to ban driving, smoking, drinking, all drug use, the lumber and fishing industries...

Who is advocating for the banning of sports?

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1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

I think they've already done this and more. 

Then they don't have anything to worry about, do they?

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2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Who is advocating for the banning of sports?

Gehringer.

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3 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

There are basically no sports with a zero percent concussion rate, so any of them put the players' mental future at risk. Not much outrage about people playing hockey, soccer, lacrosse etc. though. Can everyone play basketball? Are we going to cancel baseball when a few guys get beaned?

Should they ban heading in soccer?  Ban boxing?  Rugby?  No more checking in hockey.  No throwing inside in baseball and everyone wears a helmet with a mask at all times.

The players must be protected from anything that might potentially effect their brain in the future.

Dear lord, please protect us from ourselves.

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All I will add is specific to CTE, the issue is more to do with repetitive hits to the heads than individual concussions.

 

Concussion rates might be directionally correct as it pertains to CTE, but that is about as far as I would go with that.

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35 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Gehringer.

you have the cart somewhat before my horse. If they can't fix it and they won't change it *then* they shouldn't play it. There is a long way left to go between point A and point B. 

And youth  soccer leagues are already/have already banned 'heading' at some levels and are limiting it at others - so there may be more to happen on that front as well.

Rugby is studying the science and looking at their rules today.

In hockey the rules on checking above the shoulders have been tightened. The things on Buddha's list are already happening. Boxing is a fringe activity. The number of youth in particular participating in boxing as compared to Football, Hockey or Soccer is probably already virtually zero.

Heck, one of the biggest things is just the change of not letting guys play when concussed. If you don't let them play after those kinds of hits, then the players will get those hits removed from the game because they don't want to miss time.

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30 minutes ago, Buddha said:

the players must be protected from anything that might potentially effect their brain in the future.

 

Don't you remember? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

(you have to be old enough for that one.....)

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44 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Don't you remember? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

(you have to be old enough for that one.....)

Im older than that one. :(

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

Should they ban heading in soccer?  Ban boxing?  Rugby?  No more checking in hockey.  No throwing inside in baseball and everyone wears a helmet with a mask at all times.

The players must be protected from anything that might potentially effect their brain in the future.

Dear lord, please protect us from ourselves.

They actually should ban boxing because it has all of the bad things while also not being entertaining or interesting in any way

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1 minute ago, pyrotigers said:

They actually should ban boxing because it has all of the bad things while also not being entertaining or interesting in any way

Boxing is awesome.  Great timeless sport.  The purest oldest sport there is.

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6 hours ago, Buddha said:

Boxing is awesome.  Great timeless sport.  The purest oldest sport there is.

Love it. THere's a lot of fun talent out there right now too

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22 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I like football too, but if they can't fix the problem, I'm not willing to put anyone's mental future seriously at risk for my entertainment value. That went out with the Romans I think.

Well, the problem here is that it didn't and won't ever and... admitting that I'm putting words (or at least opinions) in your mouth... I don't know how much you would really stand by this decision.  What I mean is this: Would you continue to watch and root for baseball teams even though it's possible that a player would get beaned in the head and suffer serious mental issues?  Sure it's far rarer than football, but not unheard of at all:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/12/the-first-baseball-player-diagnosed-with-chronic-traumatic-brain-injury/282390/

If baseball is okay to watch, but football isn't (assume a significant link between CTE and playing either game is found), why?  Again at the risk of putting words in your mouth, I don't think the answer is terribly complex: It hinges on that "rarer" part above.  We all accept a certain level of risk in our lives and we expect others to do so as well.  That risk is offset by the reward.  It's probably safer, heathier, and certainly better for the environment if I walk to work vs. drive.  But the fact that I can get to work so much quicker by driving out weights the negatives.  Of course I could get to work even faster yet if I ignored speed limits and drove through red lights... but the negatives of tickets and/or accidents is higher than the small amount of time saved.

It's the same with sports entertainment.  I understand that in any game the unthinkable can happen... a line drive to a pitcher head... two players fight for a rebound and one comes down on his head...  But we're willing to risk those things (or spend our entertainment dollars watching others risk those things) because it's less likely to happen.

Now, taking this full circle (and I apologize for the rambling) how does this effect football?  Well, big injuries are certainly more common in football, but how much more?  How much bigger of a risk is football for things like CTE or concussions?  And, are those risks worth the associated reward?  We've already established above that we're willing to take those risks is they are relatively small and the reward is big enough to offset.  Why would football be different?  It isn't a question of not supporting something that is potentially dangerous to the players... rather it's a question of what the risk is and what the offsetting reward is.

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1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

It's the same with sports entertainment.  I understand that in any game the unthinkable can happen... a line drive to a pitcher head... two players fight for a rebound and one comes down on his head...  But we're willing to risk those things (or spend our entertainment dollars watching others risk those things) because it's less likely to happen.

Now, taking this full circle (and I apologize for the rambling) how does this effect football?  Well, big injuries are certainly more common in football, but how much more?  

indeed this is exactly where the rubber meets the road. I think I'd use the 'struck by lightning' standard. Nothing in life is totally safe - you might be standing on the street minding your own business and be struck dead my lightning. If you are too afraid to go out and live despite that, yes you are paralyzed (or 'pussified' to quote Buddha). The thing with CTE is that it looks like it's a lot more common in FB players than that everyday ordinary background risk of a freak accident. In the history of MLB baseball there have been just a couple of guys who have had truly tragic injuries on the field. It is really rare. There are already dozens of FB players from just the last generation who have reportedly had serious CTE issues.

Plus there is also the issue of some risks being more  acceptable to pay people to take than others. For example, way more FB players end up with knee and hip replacements at younger ages, but a replaced knee in today's world is the kind of inconvenience that millions of dollars in salary can make pretty easy to accommodate. I don't find that a very morally troubling trade. Every recreational athlete that keeps at it for a lifetime has accepted the same risk - that has become a 'normalized' value choice in this society.  Losing your mind is a risk that is just in a different class altogether.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

There are already dozens of FB players from just the last generation who have reportedly had serious CTE issues.

My biggest problem with this is how much we do or don't know about CTE.  I believe I mentioned this before but I think the only way to diagnose CTE right now is via autopsy.  Given that, I don't think we know that much how common CTE is or isn't as most people are not having their brains examined post death...  We don't know how much CTE is common in Hockey players or soccer players or your average joe who doesn't play sports.

Of course, not knowing really just presents the question: What do we do?  Do we err on the side of caution until we know enough to proclaim football safe(-ish)?  Or do we investigate but not "kill" the sport until we know for sure?

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Another thing with football players is that a good majority of them don't make a lot. Players like Peyton Manning are set for life but you have a lot of players on a football team who only last a couple years and are special teams players who have to find a career after football. For some reason Zack Follett comes to mind. He played only a couple seasons as a special teamer and had a career ending injury. He certainly didn't make enough to be set for life. Unless I was a star player, I wouldn't want to be a football player. 

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All I will add is just because all sports carry some measure of risk does not necessarily mean all risks in sports are equal or are acceptable.

Personally, if someone wants to play football, I honestly don't care, but it is a bit disingenuous to suggest the CTE risks in football are analogous to the risk of a severe head injury due to a beaning (or other cause) in baseball.  The injury risks are orders of magnitude different.

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18 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

My biggest problem with this is how much we do or don't know about CTE.  I believe I mentioned this before but I think the only way to diagnose CTE right now is via autopsy.  Given that, I don't think we know that much how common CTE is or isn't as most people are not having their brains examined post death...  We don't know how much CTE is common in Hockey players or soccer players or your average joe who doesn't play sports.

Of course, not knowing really just presents the question: What do we do?  Do we err on the side of caution until we know enough to proclaim football safe(-ish)?  Or do we investigate but not "kill" the sport until we know for sure?

I don't think this is exactly the case.  They have been doing post-mortems on human brain tissue for 100 years - they know that what they see in CTE brains does not have any kind of normal background incidence except as relates to other unusual cases of early onset dementias.

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6 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I thought that was prostitution?

Thats more of a hobby than a sport.

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