RedRamage

Ebron Tracker

117 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, hardyaf said:

The reason DTs get monster money is because NFL GMs think they should. Not necessarily because they should. 

None of the Broncos, Patriots, Packers, Cardinals, Panthers, or Seahawks spend big money on Defensive Tackles. FWIW.

 

Edit: I picked those teams because they are very good constantly and I'm at work so I couldn't look at all of them. I am unsure how much other good/okay teams like the vikings, bengals (Atkins probably gets paid), steelers spend. 

And there's a reason why QBs and DTs are the highest paid positions to go along with LT, because those are the 3 most valuable positions on a football team.  Now, you can argue that a TE is more valuable to certain teams but by and large if you're looking at value in a vacuum, DT is quite clearly the more valuable position.

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1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

Actually, they only have 4... not tons.  Now if you'd stuck with playoff wins you'd probably be better off, but 4 Championships aren't a ton.

Is this really the point you are going to argue?

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I think the fact that the league is more catered to offense makes a player like Donald that much more valuable.  It's an offensive league, loaded with offensive weapons and rules that benefit them.  That means that its far easier to find such weapons or players to take advantage of the schemes and rules.   Finding a special defensive player like Donald that can help swing things in the defenses favor is that much harder to find and makes him that much more valuable. 

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2 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

The Patriots have taken 5 DTs in the first round. The Panthers took one in the first and 2nd rounds in the same draft. The Cardinals spend big on Campbell, Daniels was dominant for the Packers last year and Jackson/Wolfe were huge for Denver on their SB run. They let Jackson go, but they did pay Wolfe and they let Julius Thomas walk

I'm pretty sure without taking a look that TE is the lowest paid non special teams position in the entire NFL. This conversation is absurd. 

1)The fact that the Patriots draft so many guys, means they aren't worth spending to keep IMO.

2)I'll be honest, I'm not as familiar with how the line on a 3-4 works, but I thought they do a strong/side weak side thing where the DE (as those two are listed, not DTs) are responsible for rushing the passer and the NT and DT are typical interior line-men. 

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1 hour ago, NYLion said:

And there's a reason why QBs and DTs are the highest paid positions to go along with LT, because those are the 3 most valuable positions on a football team.  Now, you can argue that a TE is more valuable to certain teams but by and large if you're looking at value in a vacuum, DT is quite clearly the more valuable position.

Again, they are paid because (often bad GMs) think thats valuable, not nessesarily because they are.

You are using circular logic. Ie; DTs are good because they are paid a lot and that they are paid a lot is proof that they are good.

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This topic is hilarious. If anyone is honestly suggesting they would rather have Ebron than Donald, or that we are a better (or even equal) team having Ebron over Donald is delusional and just flat out wrong.

Yes, offense is important which is exactly why pressuring a QB and stopping the opposing run game is so important.

And finding a RZ target is not all that hard, look at Fauria who caught what...7 TD in 2013 (the same number Ebron has caught his entire career)? Finding a big body isn't that difficult, finding a 3 down DT who can rush the passer and stop the run is extremely more valuable and hard to find.

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1 minute ago, EchO said:

This topic is hilarious. If anyone is honestly suggesting they would rather have Ebron than Donald, or that we are a better (or even equal) team having Ebron over Donald is delusional and just flat out wrong.

Yes, offense is important which is exactly why pressuring a QB and stopping the opposing run game is so important.

And finding a RZ target is not all that hard, look at Fauria who caught what...7 TD in 2013? Finding a big body isn't that difficult, finding a 3 down DT who can rush the passer and stop the run is extremely more valuable and hard to find.

I think they would be better with Donald than Ebron. I just disagree with the idea that DT is a pivotal position. I also would never pay Donald what he will get when his contract runs out. 

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Just now, hardyaf said:

I think they would be better with Donald than Ebron. I just disagree with the idea that DT is a pivotal position. I also would never pay Donald what he will get when his contract runs out. 

Not to mention there are a litany of reasons to hate the Ebron pick, but I also don't think it's fair to Ebron to rate him based on how good Donald became. And, if Ebron ends up being Antonio Gates, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis, etc I absolutely think he can provide more value to the team than Donald did. 

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Just now, hardyaf said:

I think they would be better with Donald than Ebron. I just disagree with the idea that DT is a pivotal position. I also would never pay Donald what he will get when his contract runs out. 

I don't disagree with any of this. I only scanned the thread and wasn't speaking about you specifically.

Is DT the most important position on defense? No.

Is having a superstar DT more valuable than a middle of the pack (with potential to be above average) TE? No question. This isn't even a matter of having different opinions, it's a fact. Replacing Ebron's production wouldn't be difficult, getting the best DT in the game is much more difficult (obviously) and way more valuable.

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1 minute ago, hardyaf said:

Not to mention there are a litany of reasons to hate the Ebron pick, but I also don't think it's fair to Ebron to rate him based on how good Donald became. And, if Ebron ends up being Antonio Gates, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis, etc I absolutely think he can provide more value to the team than Donald did. 

Now, this however is a matter of opinion. In my opinion it is totally legitimate to judge a player/draft pick on where they were taken and who they were taken over. But, I can also understand your opinion.

We needed a DT (especially with Suh being a question mark), we had just resigned Pettigrew and we had Fauria who had caught 7 TD the year before. The decision made no sense...at the time the only way I could justify it is I thought Mayhew and company had some unpublished information that Suh was 100% certain to be our DT long term and this obviously wasn't the case.

Even if you don't want to judge him based on who we could have had, I think it is very fair to judge him based on draft position. At #10 he absolutely needs to be a Gates/Gronk/Graham type of player or it isn't worth it and, IMO, a bad pick. 

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8 hours ago, EchO said:

I don't disagree with any of this. I only scanned the thread and wasn't speaking about you specifically.

Is DT the most important position on defense? No.

Is having a superstar DT more valuable than a middle of the pack (with potential to be above average) TE? No question. This isn't even a matter of having different opinions, it's a fact. Replacing Ebron's production wouldn't be difficult, getting the best DT in the game is much more difficult (obviously) and way more valuable.

Maybe not, but 7 of the top 10 defensive contracts are interior DLs right now. I could understand preferring an edge rusher, but that interior pass rush is just so valuable in today's NFL. 

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I think the thing I hate most about the Ebron pick was the fact that even going into the draft that draft was supposed to be one of the best ever for playmaking pass catchers.  That was where it was most deep.  Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Benjamin, Landry, A. RObinson, Matthews, Bryant, and Cooks were all in that draft.  And just about all those guys have been better than Ebron.  And lets not kid ourselves that Ebron is a TE, that's not why they drafted him, they drafted him to basically be a WR/playmaker.   So with that deep of draft of them there was no need to draft one that early unless you were 100% convinced that he was going to be a superstar.

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10 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

Maybe not, but 7 of the top 10 defensive contracts are interior DLs right now. I could understand preferring an edge rusher, but that interior pass rush is just so valuable in today's NFL. 

I would prefer an edge rusher and I was never arguing their wasn't value, in fact I was agreeing with you. In my post above that I mention how having a DT to pressure the QB and stuff the run game is extremely important.

If I were "ranking" the importance of defensive positions I would, personally, list them as such.

#1 - DE (main pass rusher, can dominate the game)

#2a - MLB (often time underrated, but the QB of the defense)

#2b - DT 

#3 - #1 CB

#4 - OLB  

#5 - Safeties

#6 - #2 CB 

#7 - Nickle CB

Now, this rankings do depend on defensive scheme also, if your OLB is your main pass rusher, they would obviously be ranked higher (#1). 

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22 hours ago, EchO said:

I would prefer an edge rusher and I was never arguing their wasn't value, in fact I was agreeing with you. In my post above that I mention how having a DT to pressure the QB and stuff the run game is extremely important.

If I were "ranking" the importance of defensive positions I would, personally, list them as such.

#1 - DE (main pass rusher, can dominate the game)

#2a - MLB (often time underrated, but the QB of the defense)

#2b - DT 

#3 - #1 CB

#4 - OLB  

#5 - Safeties

#6 - #2 CB 

#7 - Nickle CB

Now, this rankings do depend on defensive scheme also, if your OLB is your main pass rusher, they would obviously be ranked higher (#1). 

I wasn't being contentious about it, just throwing it out there that things may be changing a bit. For MLB, I think there about 5 that have that kind of value, and then if you don't have one of those you devalue the position a bit. 

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On 9/17/2016 at 1:01 AM, RandyMarsh said:

I think the thing I hate most about the Ebron pick was the fact that even going into the draft that draft was supposed to be one of the best ever for playmaking pass catchers.  That was where it was most deep.  Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Benjamin, Landry, A. RObinson, Matthews, Bryant, and Cooks were all in that draft.  And just about all those guys have been better than Ebron.  And lets not kid ourselves that Ebron is a TE, that's not why they drafted him, they drafted him to basically be a WR/playmaker.   So with that deep of draft of them there was no need to draft one that early unless you were 100% convinced that he was going to be a superstar.

Yah, we could have had Donald and Robinson. Imagine how filthy we'd have been......

 

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1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

I wasn't being contentious about it, just throwing it out there that things may be changing a bit. For MLB, I think there about 5 that have that kind of value, and then if you don't have one of those you devalue the position a bit. 

Agreed. 

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On 9/16/2016 at 2:34 PM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Is this really the point you are going to argue?

No, I knew what you meant, but it was more fun to intentionally misunderstand. :)

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On 9/16/2016 at 4:13 PM, EchO said:

Now, this however is a matter of opinion. In my opinion it is totally legitimate to judge a player/draft pick on where they were taken and who they were taken over. But, I can also understand your opinion.

We needed a DT (especially with Suh being a question mark), we had just resigned Pettigrew and we had Fauria who had caught 7 TD the year before. The decision made no sense...at the time the only way I could justify it is I thought Mayhew and company had some unpublished information that Suh was 100% certain to be our DT long term and this obviously wasn't the case.

Even if you don't want to judge him based on who we could have had, I think it is very fair to judge him based on draft position. At #10 he absolutely needs to be a Gates/Gronk/Graham type of player or it isn't worth it and, IMO, a bad pick. 

But, imho, this is an indictment on the GM, not the player.  Ebron, as a player, shouldn't be judged by who ended up being better than him.  Again, but extreme example is Tom Brady.  If we judge every player based on who came after him everyone else in that draft should be a bust.

Ebron can live up to his draft position if he ended up being a very good/star level TE regardless of Donald's success.  Mayhew, on the other hand, can absolutely be called out for the pick for the reasons you stated above.

Ebron could help Mayhew in this regard by being a star level TE, but unless Donald regresses significantly or Ebron ends up being HOF worthy and setting the world on fire, Ebron will never erase Mayhews mistake at this pick.

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Yah, regardless of whether that second TD counted, he has looked like a guy they will look for in the RZ, so that's good. 

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On 9/15/2016 at 3:16 PM, drownwithyou said:

I don't agree with your value breakdown at all, but even besides that, what does premier DT's not having playoff wins have to do with anything?  It seems like a very random thing to point to that actually has no correlation to a player's value to a team in my opinion.  

 

Edit: I actually decided to delete this post, first one I've tried since the switch, since I was basically just arguing and didn't really add anything to the conversation...but I can;t figure out how to delete it haha.  So feel free to ignore this.

That happens to me all the time on my Android phone. On my PC, there's a little scissors icon that will delete a post after I hit quote. But on here, it stays in memory no matter what. Pretty irritating.

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22 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

Pace after week 2 - 70/792 and 8 TDs(should be 16 dammit)

And see this is one of the reasons that I don't like TDs as a stat to measure a receiver.  It's too fickle... Refs make a ticky-tacky call and and you lose potentially 1/16th of your yearly production in TDs.  

The 70/792 is more meaningful for me at least.  But, I'll admit that I have no idea if that's high or low for a TE.  I can say that 70/792 would be just about the same as his 2015 and 2014 production combined (72/785), so that would be a very welcome result in my opinion.  (BTW, FWIW,  8 TDs would beat his '14 and '15 production of 6 TDs total.)

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70 catches and 800 yards would be a pretty damn good season for Ebron. Its not Gronk or prime Graham, but its about as good as any other TE is going to give you

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2 hours ago, RedRamage said:

The 70/792 is more meaningful for me at least.  But, I'll admit that I have no idea if that's high or low for a TE.  I can say that 70/792 would be just about the same as his 2015 and 2014 production combined (72/785), so that would be a very welcome result in my opinion.  (BTW, FWIW,  8 TDs would beat his '14 and '15 production of 6 TDs total.)

The answer to this question is easy. How many catches/yards/TDs is Aaron Donald on pace for?  

 

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