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5 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Not arguing that.  I am arguing the weighted benefit of each position. 

Surely the top 3 QBs are usually in the playoffs and making deep runs.  One can  argue that a position carries more or less importance as compared to another position, which does have a impact on team success. 

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18 minutes ago, T&P_Fan said:

What would your value breakdown be?  I am curious what other people think.  Because my weighting system is why I conclude that being a great DT doesn't help your team as compared to great offensive player. 

Honestly it would be tough for me to say since every team dynamic is so different and I think how the parts fit together is unique to each situation.  I just think back to like Super Bowl XXXV where Trent Dilfer threw for 153 yards and 1 TD but the Raven's defense absolutely dominated.  QB is a very important position, but in that Super Bowl it certainly wasn't with the Dilfer / Collins duel haha.

 

But to not be a complete cop out answer, I would say the balance is probably closer to a 50/50 importance in my opinion.  I guess I would slightly give the edge to offense just because of the ability to control the ball/clock with your game plan, players, etc.  But I do feel 70 / 30 is a very extreme importance scale, I feel like that's how the Lions historically have been building their team (especially in the REALLY down years, lets draft all these WR's and RB's and weapons but neglect the defense to the point where it is historically bad so they have no chance).   

 

I would agree with the others saying having a run stuffing and qb pressuring DT to anchor a line would be more valuable to me than a slightly above average TE (so far).  A TE would have to truly dominate to me to be worth the same as that quality of a DT.  The DT can change a whole opposing team's scheme, open up lanes for his teammates when being double teamed, impact opposition's run game and pass game, and is really integral to every play he is on the field.  Granted, a dominant tight end is going to affect the opposition's gameplan, help in the run game with blocking, and catch passes...but I feel like that is still less of an impact on the overall game than the DT unless we are talking a truly truly dominant tight end.  Just my opinion though, I understand what you are saying even if I don't agree.

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I think the offense and defense play an equal part in the teams success.  I would say 50-50, but you have to account for special teams....so maybe ST is like 10% and 45-45

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If you could choose between then, who would pick Warren Sapp, and who would pick Tony Gonzalez? (To select two HOF players from the DT and TE positions.)

I'd pick Sapp, because I think if you can rush the passer with four, you are never out of a game.

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I agree with the premise that DT just isn't a very important position. I would much rather have a great defensive end (in a 4-3) or a great OLB (in a 3-4) than a DT. I just don't value guys who can block the run that much, because quite frankly I don't believe (and numbers show) running the football isn't very valuable and it is less and less important every year. 

However, Donaldson gets to the QB. That is extremely valuable. More valuable than anything Ebron has brought to the table so far, and I like Ebron and remain optimistic on what he can bring.

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Unless you have a superstar TE like a Gronkowski they are a dime a dozen.(Same for wide receivers actually)  With all their rules the league is catered to favor the offensive player so just about any professional pass catcher can be productive in the right system and right QB.    Last year before the season a fuss was made because Newton lost a bunch of receivers to injuries, and guess what, it didn't matter one bit.  Just plug in another guy and score points.    

Granted it was only one game and it was against a bad defense but our offense didn't seem to lose a beat despite losing one of the best WR's of all time.   Yet we saw what our defense looked like last year without Suh. 

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8 hours ago, T&P_Fan said:

How many playoff wins do Suh, Donald and Watt have combined?  Please explain the 9000x value of a premier DT (yeah i guess Watt plays the end, but he pass rushes, the top three DTs in the NFL have never won a playoff game.  Cam rolled with Olsen.

 

Carolina and Denver both had DTs who have or will get 15+ mil per year. Whatever way you want to define it, great DLs are the 2nd most valuable commodity in the NFL. Teams have figured out or at least are exploiting the fact that interior pressure is the best way to disrupt a QB. Given that its a QBs league, that value should be easy to see. 

There are probably 20 DTs who make more money than Gronk. The league went 2 years without a first round TE while 5+ DTs go in the first every year. I would be surprised if a single coach or personnel guy in the entire NFL agreed with your stance here. You honestly felt when Suh was here that we'd have been better off having Jimmy Graham or something? I'm so confused right now. 

 

If we traded Ebron for Donald right now I'd probably place a large wager on us to win the SB, I'll tell you that much. 

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I vehemently disagree.  Donald is a great player, but the effect he'll have on a game isn't going to be in the same ballpark as a TE who catches TD's.  He's been on a roll since late last year.  He played well, and he's under contract right now.  The Lions are more than fine at DT.  The difference in picking up extra talent there would be minimal.  Just like upgrading at guard or center or long snapper.  Just not the most important positions on the team.  Touchdown scorers and preventers are the most important players.

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4 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

Just not the most important positions on the team.  Touchdown scorers and preventers are the most important players.

Don't you think guys like Suh, McCoy, Donald, Hardy, Wilkerson, or any DT's are touchdown preventers when they get to the QB or stuff the run at the goaline?

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10 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Unless you have a superstar TE like a Gronkowski they are a dime a dozen.(Same for wide receivers actually) 

Right. Can anyone name a game changing TE in the league besides Gronk? Maybe Travis Kelce if you want to streeeeeech it a little bit. There are more impactful, game changing DT's in the league I would think. Guys like those who I mentioned above:  Suh, McCoy, Donald, Hardy, Wilkerson, etc.

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18 hours ago, T&P_Fan said:

How many playoff wins do Suh, Donald and Watt have combined?  Please explain the 9000x value of a premier DT (yeah i guess Watt plays the end, but he pass rushes, the top three DTs in the NFL have never won a playoff game.  Cam rolled with Olsen.

 

How many playoff wins do arguably the best RB and the best WR of all time have?

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Personally I think the NFL right now is weighted more towards offense than defense, but I'd agree that 70-30 is too much.  I guess I'd peg it more like 55-35-10... but that's just off the top of my head.

But then you need to break down what roll the TE plays in the offense and this is HEAVILY determined by what scheme is used AND the skill of the TE involved.  Given how wildly dependent a team is on each other (more so than any other sport in my humble opinion), it's really really hard to assign any numbers.

 

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6 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

I vehemently disagree.  Donald is a great player, but the effect he'll have on a game isn't going to be in the same ballpark as a TE who catches TD's.  He's been on a roll since late last year.  He played well, and he's under contract right now.  The Lions are more than fine at DT.  The difference in picking up extra talent there would be minimal.  Just like upgrading at guard or center or long snapper.  Just not the most important positions on the team.  Touchdown scorers and preventers are the most important players.

Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Don't you think guys like Suh, McCoy, Donald, Hardy, Wilkerson, or any DT's are touchdown preventers when they get to the QB or stuff the run at the goaline?

All of those guys have been a part of putrid defenses, so no, they aren't game changers. I think the argument goes something like this:

In the NFL the offense dictates where the ball goes, so in general, you want your  few superstars to be on offense, and you want your defense to have no stars, but no holes. 

So while Ebron hasn't been better than Donald, I don't think it's unreasonable to say he could be. 

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21 hours ago, T&P_Fan said:

How many playoff wins do Suh, Donald and Watt have combined?  Please explain the 9000x value of a premier DT (yeah i guess Watt plays the end, but he pass rushes, the top three DTs in the NFL have never won a playoff game.  Cam rolled with Olsen.

 

And what happens if Olsen had Derek Anderson throwing to him? 

An impactful DT has the ability to dominate the game in many facets, suttfing the run, pass rush, freeing up other linemen to do their thing and while a TE can impact games as far as stretching the field is concerned and drawing double teams, it's to a much lesser extent.  There's a reason why DT's get the monster money because outside of QB, it's the most valuable position.

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1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.

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29 minutes ago, NYLion said:

There's a reason why DT's get the monster money because outside of QB, it's the most valuable position.

The reason DTs get monster money is because NFL GMs think they should. Not necessarily because they should. 

None of the Broncos, Patriots, Packers, Cardinals, Panthers, or Seahawks spend big money on Defensive Tackles. FWIW.

 

Edit: I picked those teams because they are very good constantly and I'm at work so I couldn't look at all of them. I am unsure how much other good/okay teams like the vikings, bengals (Atkins probably gets paid), steelers spend. 

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Jim Brown and Jerry Rice have tons of championships between them.

Actually, they only have 4... not tons.  Now if you'd stuck with playoff wins you'd probably be better off, but 4 Championships aren't a ton.

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48 minutes ago, hardyaf said:

The reason DTs get monster money is because NFL GMs think they should. Not necessarily because they should. 

None of the Broncos, Patriots, Packers, Cardinals, Panthers, or Seahawks spend big money on Defensive Tackles. FWIW.

 

Edit: I picked those teams because they are very good constantly and I'm at work so I couldn't look at all of them. I am unsure how much other good/okay teams like the vikings, bengals (Atkins probably gets paid), steelers spend. 

The Patriots have taken 5 DTs in the first round. The Panthers took one in the first and 2nd rounds in the same draft. The Cardinals spend big on Campbell, Daniels was dominant for the Packers last year and Jackson/Wolfe were huge for Denver on their SB run. They let Jackson go, but they did pay Wolfe and they let Julius Thomas walk

I'm pretty sure without taking a look that TE is the lowest paid non special teams position in the entire NFL. This conversation is absurd. 

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1 hour ago, hardyaf said:

All of those guys have been a part of putrid defenses, so no, they aren't game changers. I think the argument goes something like this:

In the NFL the offense dictates where the ball goes, so in general, you want your  few superstars to be on offense, and you want your defense to have no stars, but no holes. 

So while Ebron hasn't been better than Donald, I don't think it's unreasonable to say he could be. 

Almost (not McCoy) all those guys have been apart of top tier defenses too. Suh was in a top 5 D in the league in 2014. The Rams D last year with Donald was good. The Jets D when Rex Ryan was there was top 5 as well. The D's that Hardy was apart of in both Carolina and Dallas were strong units as well.

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30 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

The Patriots have taken 5 DTs in the first round. The Panthers took one in the first and 2nd rounds in the same draft. The Cardinals spend big on Campbell, Daniels was dominant for the Packers last year and Jackson/Wolfe were huge for Denver on their SB run. They let Jackson go, but they did pay Wolfe and they let Julius Thomas walk

I'm pretty sure without taking a look that TE is the lowest paid non special teams position in the entire NFL. This conversation is absurd. 

Campbell, Jackson, Wolfe are all DE's.  May God have mercy on your soul.

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