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2015 Offseason Rewind

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Rotation would have been really solid as well if Zimm was a typical 2.

Yeah, Pelfrey and Sanchez are scrubs, but it would have played well enough, especially with Sanchez showing signs of life and Boyd stepping up for Pelfrey.

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Agreed. I don't think this is a stars and scrubs team, at least prior to all of the injuries. It's a stars and good players team.

We are in this mess because upton has provided negative value. pelfrey and JV started slow. Norris has been hurt all year. Zimmermann has been hurt. Sanchez was awful for far too long. Fulmer helped offset some of that of course.

And when we finally regained the ground we had lost earlier in the year, castellanos and Iglesias and Maybin all got hurt.

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19 hours ago, Shelton said:

I'm fine with criticizing the aviles, pelfrey, and Lowe moves. There were enough reasons not to like them. But I also don't think any of those signings were objectively awful either.

Two years for pelfrey seemed odd, but we did need a cheap starter. We may not need him next season, but he has been solid enough. I don't hate that move today.

Lowe has been a disaster. But he shouldn't have been this bad. Plenty of reasons to think 2015 was a fluke, but we needed BP arms. Of course others were available, but I think they got more money.

I was pretty pissed they didn't get Shawn Kelley(the bizarro story of FA to me), but he did get more. 

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Just now, Shelton said:

Agreed. I don't think this is a stars and scrubs team, at least prior to all of the injuries. It's a stars and good players team.

We are in this mess because upton has provided negative value. pelfrey and JV started slow. Norris has been hurt all year. Zimmermann has been hurt. Sanchez was awful for far too long. Fulmer helped offset some of that of course.

And when we finally regained the ground we had lost earlier in the year, castellanos and Iglesias and Maybin all got hurt.

While its obvious not this simple, our record with and without Maybin is pretty astounding. Injuries have been the key to our struggles for the most part though. 

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2 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

While its obvious not this simple, our record with and without Maybin is pretty astounding. Injuries have been the key to our struggles for the most part though. 

You've got to give Avila props for signing Maybin. I'm sure no one expected this kind of production out of him. When he's playing it's just a different team. I can't remember a Tiger in the past 10 years having this much effect on the line-up, besides Cabrera.

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We did trade krol to get Maybin. Last I saw krol was doing well. Still, it was a great move and the type of move that should have resulted in a better bench, but Gose **** the bed.

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1 minute ago, Shelton said:

We did trade krol to get Maybin. Last I saw krol was doing well. Still, it was a great move and the type of move that should have resulted in a better bench, but Gose **** the bed.

That Fister trade was brilliant

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That Fister trade was brilliant

When you consider all the players that were directly or indirectly related to that trade, it's hard to be upset about it.

Ray has turned out to be good. But we did get Greene who looks to be a late inning asset.

It allowed us to pump up smyly's value which got us price, which got us Norris and Boyd.

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1 minute ago, Shelton said:

When you consider all the players that were directly or indirectly related to that trade, it's hard to be upset about it.

Ray has turned out to be good. But we did get Greene who looks to be a late inning asset.

It allowed us to pump up smyly's value which got us price, which got us Norris and Boyd.

Yup, plus Maybin of course

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14 minutes ago, Shelton said:

We did trade krol to get Maybin. Last I saw krol was doing well. Still, it was a great move and the type of move that should have resulted in a better bench, but Gose **** the bed.

You are correct. I blanked on that.

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47 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Iggy is not a scrub, was a highly rated prospect, but has disappointed, especially in the field.

 

 

and this year  Iggy's defensive metrics have all pretty much turned positive.

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22 minutes ago, Shelton said:

We did trade krol to get Maybin. Last I saw krol was doing well. Still, it was a great move and the type of move that should have resulted in a better bench, but Gose **** the bed.

Krol drove my crazy. Lots of talent but he sure seemed to have some kind of mental block about playing well on the ML team.

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1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, there seems to have been thus acceptance of the term "stars and scrubs" to define this team, but I don't think that's accurate at all.  

 

 

 

They were more stars and scrubs a few years ago.  This year's team is more balanced.  The stars are a little less starry but they don't have many scrubs playing important roles.  

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They were more stars and scrubs a few years ago.  This year's team is more balanced.  The stars are a little less starry but they don't have many scrubs playing important roles.  

Trying to think of the scrubs of the past.

2011 LF 3b 2b

2012 2b LF RF DH

2013 LF

2014 ss and 3b

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I don't know if its been materially more balanced.  

I think maybe the pitching staff was supposed to be more balanced.  I think the back end of the bullpen is probably what was hoped for, save for Greene taking Lowe's spot.  The rotation has been bolstered out of no where by Fulmer while Zimmermann and Sanchez have not been up to snuff.  Pelfrey and Norris have disappointed to an extent.  Boyd has been a nice revelation lately.  I think maybe as a whole the pitching is where it was designed to be, but maybe not with the same cast of characters in the same roles.

As far as position players, there's been a significant dropoff between starters and bench players.  The bench was going to be Romine, Aviles, Gose, and Saltalamacchia.  Romine is what he is.  Gose was known to be lacking, and he's completely been off the rails.  Aviles... remember him?  Saltalamacchia was a good catching option, but I'm not sure he's been used wisely.  Upton was brought in to take Cespedes' place as a star.

Castellanos, Iglesias, and Maybin have been neither scrub nor star, not in total anyway.  They've certainly improved the positions over last season.

I don't know.  The starters might be more balanced, but the depth in AAA is lacking.  Moya has been the minor leaguer that has been useful on the positional side this season.  McGehee is just taking up space.  Collins, I guess, had a decent run for a few weeks, but has since come back to earth.

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Every team has scrubs, it seems like the Tigers scrubs are just extra scrubby a lot of the time. Our bench most of the year was Mike Aviles and Andrew Romine. I feel like most teams at least have a decent outfield bench bat or a up and coming prospect on the bench. Not two utility guys, one of whom can't even break a .600 OPS.

The actual starting lineup/rotation/bullpen all seems pretty balanced to me though. I would say the team easily could have exceeded expectations given better health. Imagine if it was even as simple as Martinez not missing 6 weeks, Zimmermann being himself, and Maybin not getting hurt. I bet that alone would have the Tigers neck and neck with the Indians instead of 6 back. If not in 1st themselves.

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The relief pitcher market this past off-season was more hit and miss than I thought it was. Lowe was one of those lottery tickets, and he didn't work out. He was not the only one that didn't.

In retrospect I think it would have been wiser to go after someone with more sustained success even if there was an injury history. Madson was one of them and has been okay. Shawn Kelley was another and a guy I was pimping that was probably the best signing in the market. I didn't mind the Lowe signing at the time tho, a touch expensive but I didn't foresee him losing velocity.

Znn seemed like a solid value, but any contract for a SP that is not an ace is not a great one. Then again, we needed him and his injuries are not long term. I would not write him off. Nor Upton yet, he is notoriously streaky and is hot right now. Let's see if he can stay that way for as long as he was cold and maybe help a playoff push.

Pelfrey seemed like a desperation signing to fill out the rotation with an able body that happened before we needed to be desperate.

Aviles was a stupid signing. I hope AA doesn't do the same thing next year and Machado or a 5th OF takes up that final bench spot next to Romine, backup C, and [Collins/Moya].

But all in all, I think the trades balance things out to almost even. I think the Znn and Upton signings will look better as time passes, and KRod, JWilson, and Maybin have been a net success.

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The Pelfrey and Aviles moves were stupid, and virtually everybody but Avila realized it.

I still don't understand how Aviles lasted on the roster as long as he did I mean it's one thing to have a bench player that doesn't add anything but have a bench player lose a full point of WAR is just unheard of.

You have to make sure your bench players don't hurt you....Avila failed the test, both in the acquisition and length of service for Aviles.

Pelfrey is bad, but as long as he's in a long/swing man role next year it should be OK.....if he gets more than 5-10 starts or is pitching leverage innings, than its probably not good.

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I think the bigger problem was Sanchez having to move to the pen and Lowe becoming useless. They went to that 8 man bullpen out of necessity because of that. And that shortened the bench, making a guy like aviles more necessary. The problem of course was that he was so bad. But his level of suck was a lot worse than you would expect. Injuries to maybin and JD didn't help either, along with Moya's inability to play right field for some reason.

Pelfrey killed us early on, but turned things around before he got injured. They needed him. It was also unlikely that both Boyd and fulmer would pitch as well as they have. I think that signing was fine. Fister would have been better for sure.

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I think keeping Ausmus proved to be smart.  That might be contrarian, though.

I think most moves made sense at the time except for Pelfrey and Aviles and I haven't really seen much since to disagree.  Maybe if you are just steadfastly against long term deals with SP's, then Zimmerman was also a risk not worth taking.

DD did really well with the Price and Cespedes deals.  Nice send off.

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