Jump to content

T&P_Fan

2016 Lions Training Camp and Preseason Thread

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, T&P_Fan said:

I dislike plenty of Lions players, same as Tigers players (I think my dislike for Reiff and Slay last year were well documented, and joique Bell).  But disliking a TE who is 23 and coming into his prime is shortsighted.  Similar argument to those who were hating on Stanley Johnson in the Pistons thread.  Ebron is the wrong guy to suggest has no talent. 

I dont think people are saying he has no talent, its that he hasnt lived up to that talent yet.  One look at the guy and you can see he is a physical marvel.  

Im not giving up on him.  It takes time for players to develop.  My biggest worry is that he doesnt have the "want to" to be a good enough blocker to be a 3 down te, and that he may never develop the hands to be a great pass catching te.  The physical tools are there.

I dont think thats an unreasonable position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Buddha said:

I dont think people are saying he has no talent, its that he hasnt lived up to that talent yet.  One look at the guy and you can see he is a physical marvel.  

Im not giving up on him.  It takes time for players to develop.  My biggest worry is that he doesnt have the "want to" to be a good enough blocker to be a 3 down te, and that he may never develop the hands to be a great pass catching te.  The physical tools are there.

I dont think thats an unreasonable position.

Pretty much this.

I don't think anybody dislikes him or isn't rooting for him.  The bottom line is that he hasn't performed to the level that justifies the pick and I'm sure even Ebron himself would admit that.  It's made to look even worse because of the success of the guys drafted right at him.

This is a big year for him.  He's young in general but in football years, if you're not improving by Year 3 or Year 4, it's a problem.  This isn't like other sports where players enter their prime in their late 20s and you can afford to be patient.  He needs to start showing more in the next couple of years or it's bust territory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is, he had 8 TDs last year, which was top 5 at his position, and everyone said he didn't improve.  Cognitive dissonance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, T&P_Fan said:

The thing is, he had 8 TDs last year, which was top 5 at his position, and everyone said he didn't improve.  Cognitive dissonance. 

Ebron had 5 tds last year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

Ebron won't ever live up to being picked over Donald,OBJ and co, but he'll be a top 10 pass catching TE. Somewhere between a Tyler Eifert and a Zach Ertz. Fwiw he's entering his age 23 season in year 3. Ertz and Eifert were 23 as rookies. 

Football outsiders had him 19th among tight ends last year.  Just ahead of zack ertz.  Eifert was #1, just ahead of gronkowski.

Id expect ebron to move up that list this year into the 10-15 range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Ebron had 5 tds last year.

Yeah, sorry inverted the numbers.  5 TDs, top 8 (actually top 9, so my memory was faulty).  Good place to start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He was 15th in total yards

He was 20th in catches

He was tied for 9th in tds

He was 18th in yards per game

I already listed some advanced stas tjat have him at 18th and 19th.

I dont see how he is a top tight end when every statistical metric has him in the "average" category.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ebron will rocket into the top ten in receptions, yards, and TDs for TEs, but he will have a late fumble in FG range that leads to a 16-14 home loss against Minnesota, he will tip a pass (that he should have caught) into the hands of a Bears DB who will run it back for a TD on Dec. 11 against Chicago, and he will have a late offensive pass interference call in the end zone that leads to a 27-21 home loss to Green Bay on Jan. 1. They will finish 9-7 and miss the playoffs.

He's a front-runner. Talented but not a winner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Buddha said:

I dont think people are saying he has no talent, its that he hasnt lived up to that talent yet.  One look at the guy and you can see he is a physical marvel.  

Im not giving up on him.  It takes time for players to develop.  My biggest worry is that he doesnt have the "want to" to be a good enough blocker to be a 3 down te, and that he may never develop the hands to be a great pass catching te.  The physical tools are there.

I dont think thats an unreasonable position.

NO, but guys like Kelce and Graham are terrible blockers too and are seen as pretty damn valuable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

NO, but guys like Kelce and Graham are terrible blockers too and are seen as pretty damn valuable. 

If he ever gets to be as good as jimmy Graham was, then we wont complain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When are they going to revamp the schedule in the NFL?  Preseason games are a joke, but they sell out so you have to find something to counter getting rid of preseason...or at least some of it.  2 games is plenty.  4 games is assinine.

It gets talked about quite a bit, but I guess the easiest move would be to just add 2 games to the regular season.  I am wondering if there are other alternatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Buddha said:

If he ever gets to be as good as jimmy Graham was, then we wont complain.

Fair enough, just sayin, not many of the pass catching TEs block, and many of them have a decent amount of drops on their resume. Ebron needs to improve, a lot, but we need to accept what he is too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John_Brian_K said:

When are they going to revamp the schedule in the NFL?  Preseason games are a joke, but they sell out so you have to find something to counter getting rid of preseason...or at least some of it.  2 games is plenty.  4 games is assinine.

It gets talked about quite a bit, but I guess the easiest move would be to just add 2 games to the regular season.  I am wondering if there are other alternatives.

I'd probably just leave it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

When are they going to revamp the schedule in the NFL?  Preseason games are a joke, but they sell out so you have to find something to counter getting rid of preseason...or at least some of it.  2 games is plenty.  4 games is assinine.

It gets talked about quite a bit, but I guess the easiest move would be to just add 2 games to the regular season.  I am wondering if there are other alternatives.

I don't know why they can't just knock it down to 2 pre-season games.  Yes, the owners would be losing the cash of 1 game - but they're smart, they can plan for that.  Just give them enough advance notice.  Or set up a rotation where 1 year you have no pre-season home games, & the next year you have 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2016 at 3:53 PM, T&P_Fan said:

I dislike plenty of Lions players, same as Tigers players (I think my dislike for Reiff and Slay last year were well documented, and joique Bell).  But disliking a TE who is 23 and coming into his prime is shortsighted.  Similar argument to those who were hating on Stanley Johnson in the Pistons thread.  Ebron is the wrong guy to suggest has no talent. 

Wait, so you disliked our 3rd year shutdown CB but don't want people to dislike a 3rd year TE? I mean, I have a lot of hope for Ebron, but uhhhh, ya that makes no sense......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/28/2016 at 2:47 PM, Euphdude said:

Lions training camp used to be a bigger deal than it is nowadays.  It seems like it snuck up on us with little fanfare this season.

I wonder if that's due to rookie contacts being more controlled?  The opening of training camp was always the "deadline" that draft picks needed to sign by and so there was always some level of news cycle around who was and wasn't signed as the days counted down to camp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2016 at 2:35 PM, T&P_Fan said:

He won't live up to it for some fans.  I don't remember who was taken before or after Lions players.  So for me, as long as he is a top 10 at his position (which he will be this season) then I got no beef.  And if the issue is that he got drafted too soon then take the venom out on Mayhew (who is gone now) instead of  a player we should be rooting for. 

It's hard at times to separate the player from the GM as the player is visually there the whole time while the GM is rarely seen (and in this case gone).  So, it's not really surprising that Ebron gets a lot of "hate" thrown his way.  But you're right in the sense that it isn't his fault he got drafted where he did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2016 at 5:06 PM, T&P_Fan said:

The thing is, he had 8 TDs last year, which was top 5 at his position, and everyone said he didn't improve.  Cognitive dissonance. 

TDs are like RBIs in my humble opinion: A "counting" number that's too dependent on other factors to be statistically meaningful.

Taken to an extreme: Would you rather have a TE who was targeted 100 times in a season, but made only 15 catches averaging only 5 yards per catch, but 8 of 'em happened to be TDs?  Or a TE who was targeted 100 times, caught 60 passes, averaged 14 yards per catch, but only scored 4 TDs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/2/2016 at 11:05 AM, John_Brian_K said:

When are they going to revamp the schedule in the NFL?  Preseason games are a joke, but they sell out so you have to find something to counter getting rid of preseason...or at least some of it.  2 games is plenty.  4 games is assinine.

It gets talked about quite a bit, but I guess the easiest move would be to just add 2 games to the regular season.  I am wondering if there are other alternatives.

The problem, as I understand it right now, is that the players are paid for a 16 games rather than a full year... seemingly a semantic argument, but an important one.  If the NFL moved to 18 games the players would likely demand a 12.5% raise as they are playing 12.5% more games.  And not without reason... even dropping 2 pre-season games isn't the same as the starters would play 100% of the two extra games while the they probably play less than 30% of the two games being dropped.  More time on the field... more work... more chance of injury... they should get paid more.

But the owners... what incentive do they have to expand to 18 games?  Right now pre-season games are free money for them.  The players don't get "paid" for the games so anything in terms of (local) TV money, tickets sales, concession profits, etc... that all goes right into their pockets without having to cover the major "labor" costs.

Unless the TV deals for two more games went up by a significant amount to cover that additional 12.5% (or whatever) raise the players would demand plus the "free" money they are getting from the preseason games right now... why bother?

From a fan side, I want to see it... but I doubt players are for it, and I doubt the owners are really for it either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the game is as big as everyone keeps telling me then just expand the regular season, expand rosters and let it rip.  Have 1 or 2 preseason games and then the regular season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

TDs are like RBIs in my humble opinion: A "counting" number that's too dependent on other factors to be statistically meaningful.

Taken to an extreme: Would you rather have a TE who was targeted 100 times in a season, but made only 15 catches averaging only 5 yards per catch, but 8 of 'em happened to be TDs?  Or a TE who was targeted 100 times, caught 60 passes, averaged 14 yards per catch, but only scored 4 TDs?

Of course you take the latter, but data shows that guys don't luck into TDs in bulk for the most part

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

If the game is as big as everyone keeps telling me then just expand the regular season, expand rosters and let it rip.  Have 1 or 2 preseason games and then the regular season.

That's fine and all, but all I'm saying is that preseason games have no impact on our viewing experience. I have no idea how many preseason NBA games or Spring training games  they play for example. I just start watching once game 1 comes around. Its like complaining that a team practices too much. Yah, the season ticket holders get boned, but what does it really add up to? 10 bucks extra per regular season game? Meh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

The problem, as I understand it right now, is that the players are paid for a 16 games rather than a full year... seemingly a semantic argument, but an important one.  If the NFL moved to 18 games the players would likely demand a 12.5% raise as they are playing 12.5% more games.  And not without reason... even dropping 2 pre-season games isn't the same as the starters would play 100% of the two extra games while the they probably play less than 30% of the two games being dropped.  More time on the field... more work... more chance of injury... they should get paid more.

But the owners... what incentive do they have to expand to 18 games?  Right now pre-season games are free money for them.  The players don't get "paid" for the games so anything in terms of (local) TV money, tickets sales, concession profits, etc... that all goes right into their pockets without having to cover the major "labor" costs.

Unless the TV deals for two more games went up by a significant amount to cover that additional 12.5% (or whatever) raise the players would demand plus the "free" money they are getting from the preseason games right now... why bother?

From a fan side, I want to see it... but I doubt players are for it, and I doubt the owners are really for it either.

Well obviously regular season games generate more TV money than preseason games

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

Of course you take the latter, but data shows that guys don't luck into TDs in bulk for the most part

Is that data career or season based?  Over a career I'd tend to assume a high TD number means a pretty good player, just like over a career (or even a few seasons) a high RBI number probably means a good hitter.  But it seems to me across just a short 16 game season TDs are too susceptible to luck/randomness.

Using a real world example:

Do you want mystery TE player A, with his 7 TDs in 2014 or mystery TE player B, with his 3 TDs in 2014.  Interesting side note, they both averaged 11.5 yards per reception.

Oh course in the context of this debate you know I'm trying to set you up and so B is probably going to be the better guy...

B is Heath Miller who caught just 3 TDs for the Steelers in 2014.  But he started all 16 games and caught 66 passes for 761 yards.  Miller was targeted 91 times meaning he caught 72.5% of passed thrown to him.

A is... (drum roll) Joseph Fauria, who started just two games for the Lions in 2014 (though appear in all 16).  Fauria was targeted just 30 times, catching 18 of 'em (60%) for a total of 207 yards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...