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Gehringer_2

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Why? You'll just tear it down. 

First for everything I suppose chief

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

This is a thought-provoking thread about why Michigan seems to be a hotbed of these rural terrorist militias. Obviously doesn’t lay out the entire case but provides some possibilities to explore.

 

I buy that SE MI has a really terrible race history, seeded not in the least by migration to the SE MI auto industry  of both blacks and southern whites who brought their racism with them. What I would want to know before I accept the thesis is whether these rural radicals have any connection to SE MI or not. If it is people whose families originally moved to SE MI then moved out-state that form the core of these groups, or families the migrated to outstate MI directly from the South, I could buy that they took their race radicalization with them and so the seed of their craziness, but if you researched the family histories and found that these are mostly people who never lived in SE MI and/or were not southern migrants, (e.g. if you found a lot of this same radicalization in Finns or Swedes who migrated directly to outstate MI from Europe) I'd  suspect the explanations may be more complex. For instance  radicalization/racism in the Dutch reform populations in Western Mi may harken back to totally unrelated histories than Detroit's.

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I'm a huge fan of "I'm not going to apply 21st century ethics to an item existing in the 21st century" approach as well.    I think it's entirely appropriate for a 21st century society to exhibit it's 21st century values rather than be beholden to centuries long past.

I definitely expect people in the next century to rip down Trump statues that exist.    You may differ.  They shouldn't care what we think

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20 minutes ago, pfife said:

I'm a huge fan of "I'm not going to apply 21st century ethics to an item existing in the 21st century" approach as well.    I think it's entirely appropriate for a 21st century society to exhibit it's 21st century values rather than be beholden to centuries long past.

We give ourselves too much credit for social evolution. Life was harder and crueler and death was always a lot closer at hand in centuries past and certainly many more people were able to live beyond the reach of any prevailing morality (like Columbus and his cronies in the "New World"), but Civilization's understanding of right and wrong, fairness vs abuse, go back just as far as recorded history does. 

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11 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

We give ourselves too much credit for social evolution. Life was harder and crueler and death was always a lot closer at hand in centuries past and certainly many more people were able to live beyond the reach of prevailing any morality (like Columbus and his cronies in the "New World"), but Civilization's understanding of right and wrong, fairness vs abuse, go back just as far as recorded history does. 

touche, after all we have people arguing we should continue to revere 15th century ethics in 2020 so I guess there isn't much evolution

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4 minutes ago, pfife said:

touche, after all we have people arguing we should continue to revere 15th century ethics in 2020 so I guess there isn't much evolution

it seems contradictory to me that conservatives who want nothing more than to institutionalize moral codes laid down before 1000 BC would turn around and claim modern society has achieved some kind of additional enlightenment.

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16 minutes ago, pfife said:

touche, after all we have people arguing we should continue to revere 15th century ethics in 2020 so I guess there isn't much evolution

i dont think anyone has said we should revere 15th century ethics, but rather appreciate the exploration of the americas by europeans and the next chaptet in world history that set up, like the creation of america, the exportation of christianity, and the great european territorial expansion across the "new world."

talk about a momentous event in world history!  

i like my columbus statues more than the average bear, but i see your argument for removal.  times have changed and the values we want to extol have changed.  italians are now considered "white" and accepted into the mainstream so there is no longer a perceived need to value one of their cultural heroes, and they may not consider him a hero any more because of how people's ideas on how one should behave have changed.

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34 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

We give ourselves too much credit for social evolution. Life was harder and crueler and death was always a lot closer at hand in centuries past and certainly many more people were able to live beyond the reach of any prevailing morality (like Columbus and his cronies in the "New World"), but Civilization's understanding of right and wrong, fairness vs abuse, go back just as far as recorded history does. 

like the fact that slavery was an accepted practice in almost every culture on the planet at the time?  it certainly was in the "new world."  that those slaves were routinely raped and sacrificed to the gods, and that the abusers would often cut out the hearts of children and women, and then cut off their skin and wear it as an ornament while sacrificing more members of the other tribe to the gods?

same values as now?  i dont think so.

i mean, you were forbidden from taking a muslim as a slave, but a non muslim?  that was fair game.  christians were sold as slaves all the time to muslims (and people often converted to avoid slavery).  and the same thing was true of christians.  you could enslave any muslims or pagans you wanted, but christians were off limits.  

in fact, as im reading up on my french wars of religion or the english religious conflicts, i do note that it was seen as almost humane to kill sinners and babies brought into the wrong faith to somehow save them from eternal damnation brought upon them by their heretic parents.

but yes, columbus was definitely an outlier in his actions against the native populations (75-90% of whom died from disease and not "genocide").  on the contrary, he was operating as many or most foreign cultures of that time operated when confronted with a new threat, or opportunity to make money through conquest and plunder.  you think people condemned mass rape from soldiers?  read a history of the 30 years war.

unfortunately much of human history is a tale of the inability of cultures to get along and share.  columbus was a part of that and not anything extraordinary for his time.  if you want to refuse to honor him because of that fact, that's understandable, but he wasnt really much different than most people in his time.

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11 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I buy that SE MI has a really terrible race history, seeded not in the least by migration to the SE MI auto industry  of both blacks and southern whites who brought their racism with them. What I would want to know before I accept the thesis is whether these rural radicals have any connection to SE MI or not. If it is people whose families originally moved to SE MI then moved out-state that form the core of these groups, or families the migrated to outstate MI directly from the South, I could buy that they took their race radicalization with them and so the seed of their craziness, but if you researched the family histories and found that these are mostly people who never lived in SE MI and/or were not southern migrants, (e.g. if you found a lot of this same radicalization in Finns or Swedes who migrated directly to outstate MI from Europe) I'd  suspect the explanations may be more complex. For instance  radicalization/racism in the Dutch reform populations in Western Mi may harken back to totally unrelated histories than Detroit's.

I agree that drawing a line from migration to Detroit through to movement to outstate in subsuquent decades (especially the turbulent Civil Rights era) might help explain the strength of racial animus in some people who live there, and to organize into the type of militias that sprung as a concept from the Scots-Irish American experience. Anecdotally I know of a few who went that route, but I don't know the actual numbers.

I had no idea Dutch Reform people were virulently anti-black, enough to radicalize into militias. What's the basis of that?

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11 hours ago, Buddha said:

like the fact that slavery was an accepted practice in almost every culture on the planet at the time?  it certainly was in the "new world."  that those slaves were routinely raped and sacrificed to the gods, and that the abusers would often cut out the hearts of children and women, and then cut off their skin and wear it as an ornament while sacrificing more members of the other tribe to the gods?

same values as now?  i dont think so.

i mean, you were forbidden from taking a muslim as a slave, but a non muslim?  that was fair game.  christians were sold as slaves all the time to muslims (and people often converted to avoid slavery).  and the same thing was true of christians.  you could enslave any muslims or pagans you wanted, but christians were off limits.  

in fact, as im reading up on my french wars of religion or the english religious conflicts, i do note that it was seen as almost humane to kill sinners and babies brought into the wrong faith to somehow save them from eternal damnation brought upon them by their heretic parents.

but yes, columbus was definitely an outlier in his actions against the native populations (75-90% of whom died from disease and not "genocide").  on the contrary, he was operating as many or most foreign cultures of that time operated when confronted with a new threat, or opportunity to make money through conquest and plunder.  you think people condemned mass rape from soldiers?  read a history of the 30 years war.

unfortunately much of human history is a tale of the inability of cultures to get along and share.  columbus was a part of that and not anything extraordinary for his time.  if you want to refuse to honor him because of that fact, that's understandable, but he wasnt really much different than most people in his time.

LOL- you need to read the news more often if you think all that stuff isn't going on today. As to slavery, do you really want to hang your argument on the fact that it took 2900 of the 3000 years of recorded history for humanity to develop its most efficiently barbaric form in the US as evidence of the inevitability of social progress over historical time? 

From the beginning of history there has always been a huge gulf between what was preached and what was practiced. It isn't particularly sound argument to compare the preaching of one time vs of the practice of any other time. In every time there has been a huge gulf. Even today, how goes this modern world look to a Uighur, or a Tutsi or Yazidi? We live on an island of relative civility.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

LOL- you need to read the news more often if you think all that stuff isn't going on today. As to slavery, do you really want to hang your argument on the fact that it took 2900 of the 3000 years of recorded history for humanity to develop its most efficiently barbaric form in the US as evidence of the inevitability of social progress over historical time? 

From the beginning of history there has always been a huge gulf between what was preached and what was practiced. It isn't particularly sound argument to compare the preaching of one time vs of the practice of any other time. In every time there has been a huge gulf. Even today, how goes this modern world look to a Uighur, or a Tutsi or Yazidi? We live on an island of relative civility.

so are you saying that the views of the average joe in 2020 on how to treat fellow humans is the same as it was in 1500?

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9 minutes ago, Buddha said:

so are you saying that the views of the average joe in 2020 on how to treat fellow humans is the same as it was in 1500?

Sure, it's just harder to get away with stuff now.  

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46 minutes ago, Buddha said:

so are you saying that the views of the average joe in 2020 on how to treat fellow humans is the same as it was in 1500?

depends on whether you would count today's republicans as 'average joes'.......

:P

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8 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

 

If Democratically-controlled legislative and executive branches takes their seat in January, do they attempt to finish the job in 2021?

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Just heard something wild from a friend. A couple years ago they hired a dog trainer for their dog, but after a few sessions at their home, they didn’t feel comfortable. His techniques were a little aggressive, and something seemed off, so they didn’t continue with him as a trainer. 

They figured out today that this trainer was the man killed a couple weeks ago in a shootout the FBI outside a Texas Roadhouse in Madison Heights. He had connections with the Whitmer plot and also connections with the Ruby Ridge standoff. He also served a lengthy prison sentence after shooting at cops in Colorado. They had him in there home a few times. 
 

https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/news/local/oakland-county/2020/10/07/ruby-ridge-madison-heights-fbi-shootout-eric-allport-boogaloo/3629352001/

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1 hour ago, tigerbomb13 said:

Just heard something wild from a friend. A couple years ago they hired a dog trainer for their dog, but after a few sessions at their home, they didn’t feel comfortable. His techniques were a little aggressive, and something seemed off, so they didn’t continue with him as a trainer. 

They figured out today that this trainer was the man killed a couple weeks ago in a shootout the FBI outside a Texas Roadhouse in Madison Heights. He had connections with the Whitmer plot and also connections with the Ruby Ridge standoff. He also served a lengthy prison sentence after shooting at cops in Colorado. They had him in there home a few times. 
 

https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/news/local/oakland-county/2020/10/07/ruby-ridge-madison-heights-fbi-shootout-eric-allport-boogaloo/3629352001/

Yikes!

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Amongst all the stuff from last night’s town meeting there was this tidbit from Iowa. 
 

Having worked small market radio in the 70s and early 80s the daily farm report was a staple. Gotta know the price of soybean futures.

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Watching The Trial of the Chicago 7 on Netflix. It’s an Aaron Sorkin production. All star cast. Sacha Baron Cohen as Abbie Hoffman, Frank Langella as Judge Julius Hoffman, Mark Rylance as William Kunstler.

This is a must watch

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lol jeffrey toobin.  couldnt happen to a smugger piece of crap.

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