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And it is always couched that way - 'yeah it was a terrible tragedy that John Q. Public was [insert specifics of his death], but he was a POS'

Nobody comes out and says it's ok the guy died because he was a criminal or committed criminal acts in the past, but that is the implication.

Sadly, many buy into that implication without questioning it, and those who do question it are told some variation of: 'I said it was a terrible tragedy.  And he was a POS, which isn't a lie, so what is the problem with what I said?'

That is why it is an effective messaging technique.  You can send the message effectively without coming out with the ugly truth that a decent percentage of us are ok with people being killed by the cops so long as the individual can be plausibly labeled a criminal.

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10 hours ago, Melody said:

It is what he said.  This is not a situation there the guy had some speeding tickets.  The police arrived knowing that he had active warrants and for what.  Is seven shots in the back excessive?  I would think so.  But to equate traffic tickets to domestic violence is offensive.  So shame on you too.

What he was charged with is completely irrelevant... he shouldn't have been shot seven times in the back. 

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38 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

And it is always couched that way - 'yeah it was a terrible tragedy that John Q. Public was [insert specifics of his death], but he was a POS'

Nobody comes out and says it's ok they guy died because he was a criminal or committed criminal acts in the past, but that is the implication.

Sadly, many buy into that implication without questioning it, and those who do question it are told some variation of: 'I said it was a terrible tragedy.  And he was a POS, which isn't a lie, so what is the problem with what I said?'

That is why it is an effective messaging technique.  You can send the message effectively without coming out with the ugly truth that a decent percentage of us are ok with people being killed by the cops so long as the individual can be plausibly labeled a criminal.

Not terribly unlike "Yeah almost 200,000 people died but most of them were old or had diabetes or something"

It's a cop out to not have to address a difficult situation.

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14 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Not terribly unlike "Yeah almost 200,000 people died but most of them were old or had diabetes or something"

It's a cop out to not have to address a difficult situation.

bro, it's herd immunity

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2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

What he was charged with is completely irrelevant... he shouldn't have been shot seven times in the back. 

What the officers knew going in on the call:  an individual with warrants for domestic violence and sexual assault had violated the protective order and was at his victim's home causing a disturbance.   He threw down against the police, was tased twice, armed with a knife and getting into a vehicle with children in it.

That is a high energy, potentially very dangerous situation and decisions made on the spot.  No comparison to some dude with tickets.    None.  

 

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1 minute ago, Melody said:

What the officers knew going in on the call:  an individual with warrants for domestic violence and sexual assault had violated the protective order and was at his victim's home causing a disturbance.   He threw down against the police, was tased twice, armed with a knife and getting into a vehicle with children in it.

That is a high energy, potentially very dangerous situation and decisions made on the spot.  No comparison to some dude with tickets.    None.  

 

false comparison.   the question is whether he needed to be shot 7 times in the back and it really seems like it didn't need to happen that way.

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53 minutes ago, pfife said:

false comparison.   the question is whether he needed to be shot 7 times in the back and it really seems like it didn't need to happen that way.

Seven shots at close range is the sole issue.   Seems like that officer lost his cool since he continued to fire.   But I'm not the one who brought up tickets.  This was not a poor, innocent victim.  He was a violent abuser in violation of a protection order and violently resisting being arrested for what HE did and was in the process of doing.   

When are the massive protests against domestic abuse going to start?  

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All of that may be true but still irrelevant because it's not the police officer's job to provide a trial and sentence even if they "lose their cool".  

When someone is denied justice they are a victim and he was denied justice.  His prior status is still irrelevant.  The single issue is the police officer firing 7 shots in his back.  What went on prior to that event doesn't play into it.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Melody said:

Seven shots at close range is the sole issue.   Seems like that officer lost his cool since he continued to fire.   But I'm not the one who brought up tickets.  This was not a poor, innocent victim.  He was a violent abuser in violation of a protection order and violently resisting being arrested for what HE did and was in the process of doing.   

When are the massive protests against domestic abuse going to start?  

Another false comparison.   civilian on civilian crime is different than what happened here, it involved a police officer who is supposed to have higher standards and is a servant of the community paid by tax dollars.  Also, if he was an abuser, it sounds like the justice system has already dealt with him, which is the other difference.

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45 minutes ago, Melody said:

This was not a poor, innocent victim.  He was a violent abuser in violation of a protection order and violently resisting being arrested for what HE did and was in the process of doing.

So what if he isn't an innocent victim?

Does this sort of thing happen in other first world nations?

Honest question - don't know the answer.

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34 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

How innocent are the cops involved?

We will find out, assuming investgations and any resulting trials are fair and unbiased.  Firing seven shots seems excessive on the surface, but the shooting itself appears to be within the laws and purvues given to law enforcement.  Again...we will see where the evidence and resulting investigations lead.

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We need to make sure the cop didn't have any domestic violence allegations against him either... that's relevant I guess.  Has he ever smoked pot?  

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4 minutes ago, Oblong said:

We need to make sure the cop didn't have any domestic violence allegations against him either... that's relevant I guess.  Has he ever smoked pot?  

Of course. We always hear the protestors wanting to know who the cop is, how long they have been with the force, and any outstanding disciplinary action. Shaun King was ready to out every officer on the Kenosha force until we get that information. 

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29 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Of course. We always hear the protestors wanting to know who the cop is, how long they have been with the force, and any outstanding disciplinary action. Shaun King was ready to out every officer on the Kenosha force until we get that information. 

So you are saying an employee's job performance history is not relevant when deciding if performed their job appropriately?

That's strange.

 

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4 minutes ago, Oblong said:

So you are saying an employee's job performance history is not relevant when deciding if performed their job appropriately?

That's strange.

 

Never said that but ok. 

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15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Never said that but ok. 

So why did you post what you just did if not to say that?  What was your point? 

Oh that's right, playing the passive aggressive game.  It's ok.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Oblong said:

So why did you post what you just did if not to say that?  What was your point? 

Oh that's right, playing the passive aggressive game.  It's ok.  

 

 

I think the officer's discipline history and a suspect's violent criminal history are equally relevant. 

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12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I think the officer's discipline history and a suspect's violent criminal history are equally relevant. 

I think they are relevent, but not necessarily equally relevent.  Violent convicted criminal behavior isn't the same as on-the-job disciplinary action that does not break laws.

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One involves how a person carries out their work and their employment history is a indicator of that.  It's why HR departments keep records of performance reviews.    

A person's violent history plays no part in how they should be treated by a police officer.  That is an isolated incident.  They don't decide to ask nicely, tackle, tase, or shoot, based on something you did 3 years ago.

 

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Just now, Oblong said:

 

One involves how a person carries out their work and their employment history is a indicator of that.  It's why HR departments keep records of performance reviews.    

A person's violent history plays no part in how they should be treated by a police officer.  That is an isolated incident.  They don't decide to ask nicely, tackle, tase, or shoot, based on something you did 3 years ago.

 

It may give an indication whether the suspect did act violently toward the officer just like an infraction 3 years ago against an officer doesn't mean they will shoot a suspect. 

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18 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I think the officer's discipline history and a suspect's violent criminal history are equally relevant. 

Correct.

Neither one of them give authorization to a cop to play judge, jury, and executioner.

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1 minute ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

Correct.

Neither one of them give authorization to a cop to play judge, jury, and executioner.

Well if a suspect is pulling a weapon on a cop it does.

I also want to be clear I'm speaking generally and not the Kenosha incident. 

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3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Well if a suspect is pulling a weapon on a cop it does.

I also want to be clear I'm speaking generally and not the Kenosha incident. 

Pulling a weapon on a cop is a current activity/ situation, isn't it?

Still no connection to past history.

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Just now, 84 Lives!!! said:

Pulling a weapon on a cop is a current activity/ situation, isn't it?

Still no connection to past history.

Sure it is. When you have a situation of the cop's word vs the guy who got shot, the suspect's history of violence would be considered as well as the cop's disciplinary history. 

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