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Gehringer_2

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I’d like to see some data that supports the claim that ex-felons are going to vote D. 

I agree with pfife - once a felon has paid the price for the crime they are being subjected to taxation without representation, which is anti-democratic. Voting rights should be restored once your debt to society has been fulfilled. 

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My brother is a convicted felon. Sold about an 1/8th of an ounce of pot. Apparently, possessing marijuana in a park is an automatic felony in Michigan. That felony haunted him for a better part of a decade. I believe he was finally able to get it expunged. Not all felonies are created equal. Once you serve your time, you're still a citizen. I don't see ho ex-felons voting hurt the democratic process.

 

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37 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

I’d like to see some data that supports the claim that ex-felons are going to vote D. 

I agree with pfife - once a felon has paid the price for the crime they are being subjected to taxation without representation, which is anti-democratic. Voting rights should be restored once your debt to society has been fulfilled. 

In Michigan we have appointed Emergency Managers who make life-changing decisions without having to answer for it by the citizens.  That's taxation without representation, so we've already done that in this state.    Sure worked well for Flint, didn't it? 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

My brother is a convicted felon. Sold about an 1/8th of an ounce of pot. Apparently, possessing marijuana in a park is an automatic felony in Michigan. That felony haunted him for a better part of a decade. I believe he was finally able to get it expunged. Not all felonies are created equal. Once you serve your time, you're still a citizen. I don't see ho ex-felons voting hurt the democratic process.

 

One of the stupidities in America today that isn't even a partisan issues but no-one is willing to fix is crime inflation. Mostly because of dollar value loss from economic inflation, and partly because of our wrong headedness about drugs, the idea that 'felonies' are actually supposed to be serious crimes has become ridiculously degraded in too many jurisdictions. In the federal system I believe $250  is felony theft. That is absurd.  In MI I think it is $1000 and even that just barely a cell phone today.

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13 hours ago, stanpapi said:

Nothing you just said is anything different than what she said. 

The difference is that Kimmel did his thing in 2003, Megyn Kelly said hers in 2018, and we are smarter about this kind of thing now then we were back then.

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18 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Florida has been a target of national liberal groups for banning felons from voting. They realize, given the tight margins of Presidential elections, getting a group that is more likely to vote D may swing some Presidential elections. They don't give a rat's *** about anything else

I don't think this is necessarily true. I would bet a lot of them, most of them even, are for maintaining the core rights of citizenship for citizens, on its own merits. I don't think we can assume that everyone is a partisan hack.

We tell felons that if they serve their time and behave, having paid their debt to society, they can be rehabilitated back into society. But if we also withhold from them the number one right of citizenship—the right to vote—aren't we telling these people that even with their debt completely paid, they are still not full citizens, and that they don't deserve a citizen's voice? And if we're telling them that no matter what they do, they can never get that voice back, then why would they feel like they have any stake in our society? When we spin people off from society by telling them they're less of citizens than us, for no other reason than they had a debt to society that they repaid, then what's in it for them to act nice and play by the rules? Just so they can serve our needs by being a good upstanding person while having their own needs denied? That makes no sense to me.

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There are only a few states that require a convicted felon to petition the state to restore voting rights.

In my state, they are automatically restored when the full sentence, including probation,  is fulfilled.  

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On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:33 AM, Motown Bombers said:

My brother is a convicted felon. Sold about an 1/8th of an ounce of pot. Apparently, possessing marijuana in a park is an automatic felony in Michigan. That felony haunted him for a better part of a decade. I believe he was finally able to get it expunged. Not all felonies are created equal. Once you serve your time, you're still a citizen. I don't see ho ex-felons voting hurt the democratic process.

I know *****es be crazy and all, but a ho ex-felon is a whole 'nother level.

 

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On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:49 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

One of the stupidities in America today that isn't even a partisan issues but no-one is willing to fix is crime inflation. Mostly because of dollar value loss from economic inflation....

ding, ding, ding.

Pick up your prize at the counter.

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On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:18 PM, Edman85 said:

So... I'm voting almost a straight D ticket for the first time this year, but on the initiatives, Florida has one about granting felons the right to vote, and I just can't get on board. "Tough ****. You shouldn't have committed a felony" is all I can think.

People make mistakes and people can change.

Our society is big and strong enough to accommodate for those facts.

On a similar note, for me, the most positive aspect of Christianity is the idea someone can be absolved of their sin / wrongdoing through penance and exhibiting regret.  Lots of people profess to be Christian (not saying you are one), yet don't mind convicted criminals who have done their time be marginalized in society.

Hard for me to square that one.

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I think the reason felons can’t vote isn’t based on law and order. It’s because of the presumption of who those people would vote for.  Throwing in some good old fashioned law and order stuff is convenient  but not the real motivation.  

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In theory, one of the tenets of the criminal justice system is the rehabilitation of those who commit crimes. Given this, I see no reason that someone who has had their case adjudicated, fulfilled their sentence and been deemed rehabilitated by the state should not be granted the immediate right to exercise their franchise to vote. Full stop.

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I think felons should have the right to vote after their debt has been paid.

that said, I can understand the reasoning for penalizing them. In effect, the sentence you receive is losing the right to vote for the rest of your life, plus whatever else your sentence is. 

I think the bigger issue is the inequitable conviction rate applied to certain subsets of society that are more frequently targeted by police and prosecuted by the state, and who are less likely to have access to effective legal representation.

in that sense, it sure would be nice if rehabilitated felons could vote, especially because the loss of that right isn’t acting as any sort of deterrent. 

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On 10/28/2018 at 9:17 AM, chasfh said:

I like this.

44514313_2692251687666563_18826004220115

We used that as an illustration in children’s church many years ago.   It was from a book of children’s object lessons.  

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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

I think the bigger issue is the inequitable conviction rate applied to certain subsets of society

absofreakinglutely.

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If the DNC doesn’t tell Hillary to go away for the 2020 election, then we are almost assured a Trump re-election. I wish I could say Dems are smart enough to realize this, but I my hopes aren’t too high. 

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On 10/27/2018 at 12:34 PM, chasfh said:

The difference is that Kimmel did his thing in 2003, Megyn Kelly said hers in 2018, and we are smarter about this kind of thing now then we were back then.

Kelly is gone because she couldn't get ratings, but Kimmel actually did it in 2003, Kellly said it wasn't a big deal to do it 30 years ago, if and only if, they were doing it as a character (like Kimmel was apparently fine to do only 15 years earlier).   To pretend Kelly is the 'worst' one in this scenario is a joke or shows a bias on your own part.

4 hours ago, Euphdude said:

If the DNC doesn’t tell Hillary to go away for the 2020 election, then we are almost assured a Trump re-election. I wish I could say Dems are smart enough to realize this, but I my hopes aren’t too high. 

Well, if it's not Hillary, it appears to be either Biden or Sanders.  Biden doesn't want to run in the #metoo world and Sanders will force the folks that hate Trump, but are fiscally conservative to vote for Trump anyway.  I can tell you I wouldn't be opposed to Hillary.  I regret my Johnson vote over her.

On 10/27/2018 at 9:57 AM, Motor City Sonics said:

In Michigan we have appointed Emergency Managers who make life-changing decisions without having to answer for it by the citizens.  That's taxation without representation, so we've already done that in this state.    Sure worked well for Flint, didn't it? 

This is not taxation without representation.  Emergency Managers answer to the State, who have authority over local governments.  Doesn't mean it's a great thing, but it gets a bad rap.  I would like a tougher process before a city gets one, but once they do, I have no problem with them having full authority.  That said, the EM needs to answer to the State and the Fed gov't.

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6 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Well, if it's not Hillary, it appears to be either Biden or Sanders.  Biden doesn't want to run in the #metoo world and Sanders will force the folks that hate Trump, but are fiscally conservative to vote for Trump anyway.  I can tell you I wouldn't be opposed to Hillary.  I regret my Johnson vote over her.

 

Sanders would have beaten Trump.  If we ever get the young voters to actually vote, you guys are doomed.  He was candidate that could have done it at that time.  

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10 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Emergency Managers answer to the State, who have authority over local governments.  Doesn't mean it's a great thing, but it gets a bad rap.  I would like a tougher process before a city gets one, but once they do, I have no problem with them having full authority.  That said, the EM needs to answer to the State and the Fed gov't.

the bigger issue was the EM law has turned out to be pretty useless - which is because it was based on a false premise - which was that financial management is the problem in any large percentage of these municipal fiscal implosions. It is in a few, but in the big cases like Flint and Det, the real issues were tax base collapse and pension overhangs in systems whose employee to retiree ratio had collapsed. The subtext to the EM law was a basic soft racism view of the world that white guys from Lansing could solve all these minority community's problems because their root cause was incompetent minority civic management.  In many cases it was not very good, or in Kwame's case it was corrupt, but the fact is as bad as those situations were, they were not the root cause of the fiscal crises which is why the EMs could not solve them either.

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

If we ever get the young voters to actually vote, you guys are doomed.

That's always been the democratic belief.  But then younger folks get older and change on some positions.

1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

the bigger issue was the EM law has turned out to be pretty useless - which is because it was based on a false premise - which was that financial management is the problem in any large percentage of these municipal fiscal implosions. It is in a few, but in the big cases like Flint and Det, the real issues were tax base collapse and pension overhangs in systems whose employee to retiree ratio had collapsed. The subtext to the EM law was a basic soft racism view of the world that white guys from Lansing could solve all these minority community's problems because their root cause was incompetent minority civic management.  In many cases it was not very good, or in Kwame's case it was corrupt, but the fact is as bad as those situations were, there were not the root cause of the fiscal crises which is why the EMs could not solve them either.

Well, it's not a false premise, it is a financial issue that brings them in.  You are absolutely correct in that it very well could be more (and usually is more) than financial mismanagement that causes it.  Similar to bankruptcy with a company, but regardless of a bad product/service that might lead them to financial issues, it's not being able to pay their bills that ultimately puts them in bankruptcy.

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48 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

That's always been the democratic belief.  But then younger folks get older and change on some positions.

 

But then there is a new generation of young people to replace them.  If young people always voted, it would change the political landscape.  

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