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Should Kenny Holland be fired (Post Free Agent edition)

Should Kenny Holland be fired ?(Post - Free Agent Edition).   

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Kenny Holland be fired ? (Post - Free Agent Edition)

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      5
    • I just don't care anymore
      4


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On 2/15/2017 at 10:04 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

I think Holland's status is the question. Blashill will be gone as a matter of course when Kenny is sacked.

But this could go either way. It may only have been Mike's infirmity saving Holland's job.  We don't know how engaged Mike was been in recent weeks/months or how much Chris may have held off pushing any changes he might have in mind because he didn't want to rattle his father's comfort level at the end. It's not unusual for the new king to make changes after a reasonable time period mourning the old king. We just don't know.

But it doesn't seem like there is much you can do with the Wings right now. Selling at the deadline for all the young talent and/or picks you can amass is logical, but do you want Kenny leading that effort if you don't trust him any more? Yet a new GM probably wouldn't be up to speed on the team and system fast enough to do it even if you fired Kenny today.

illtch let Dombrowski sell with the Tigers and then fired him a couple days later. 

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7 minutes ago, cruzer1 said:

I believe that Holland was under a win at any cost edict from Mr I and can now do what he needs to do. 

even if that was true is doesn't explain his lack of draft success with the picks he had.

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47 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

even if that was true is doesn't explain his lack of draft success with the picks he had.

He has a high degree of success at the draft.  I couldn't disagree more. 

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When have the Wings drafted in the top 10? That is the problem.  Natural decline.  Going to the playoffs for 25 straight years will do that to any team. There is still remnants of the 08 cup winner still around.  Tough to do the right thing,  especially the owner. 

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It makes things more difficult to be sure, but not impossible.  One thing that the successful teams of late have done is make trades and make good free agent signings.  Too many expensive long term deals for too many bottom six players and way too much loyalty for guys who aren't deserving of it.  It took Holland far too long to realize, if he even has, that with the salary cap, infusing young players and phasing out high priced "character" guys is crucial to success under the new NHL.  

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14 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

I believe that Holland was under a win at any cost edict from Mr I and can now do what he needs to do. 

Maybe that's true, but I don't think so. In either case, it doesn't explain his over-loyal affections that he has towards his own guys. It doesn't explain why he gave guys like Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Howard such awful contracts that he can't get out from under.

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13 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Maybe that's true, but I don't think so. In either case, it doesn't explain his over-loyal affections that he has towards his own guys. It doesn't explain why he gave guys like Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Howard such awful contracts that he can't get out from under.

Part if not most of the reason behind bad contract extensions is the loyalty factor Holland hasn't been able to let go of in the cap era.  In most cases it is impractical and detrimental to reward loyalty in hard cap leagues, unless a player is willing to sign an extension that is under his free market value.  Holland does not follow that edict.

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I never buy the idea that a team's development success depends on where they draft in the first round. The Wings success did not hinder their ability to maintain stability.   It's not just the top first round picks that determine success.  It's development of the lower picks too.  That's not a valid excuse for poor performance in that area.   Sure you may lose out on the big superstar you get in the top 5 but that's not all that is needed.

What the Wings have done is similar to what has hindered the Tigers and I think that's a Mike Ilitch thing.  He likes to hang on to 'his boys'.  He's too sentimental.  When tough decisions have to be made to let them go his franchises have rarely made the tough decision.

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The Tigers and Red Wings were in reverse.

When Ilitch took over the Tigers he twice committed too much money / years to players who weren't cornerstones to a championship caliber team.  Firstly when he purchased the team and extended Fielder, signed Mike Moore, etc.  Second go around was the Higginson/Clark/Easley train.  Then the org was much better about not extending or signing stars that were largely unproductive.

I do think they got somewhat lucky on Ordonez and Rodriguez, Guillen was held onto too long, Willis / Robertson signings were poorly considered.  But banking on Verlander and Cabrera worked out.  They tried to extend Scherzer.  VMart's deal was a bad idea.  Fielder part 2 was also a bad idea but a good trade salvaged it.  But none of these moves really hamstrung the Tigers because they had enough talent paired with the trade surplus from various DD trade rapes to overcome them.

The Wings never really ran into the issue of being hamstrung by bad contracts to marginal players until recently.  I think by the time free agency became a significant tool to build an NHL team, the Wings had developed their own talent and basically spent to keep it, adding a star here or there to round it out, much like the Yankees 15-20 years ago.  Then salary cap came, and the Wings diverted their resources to their stars and didn't spend much on the marginal guys.  That worked great until the stars aged out and no new stars replaced them.  So they took the freed up money and spent it on guys who didn't deserve it, much like the late 90's Tigers.

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I think the offer to keep Scherzer was a half assed attempt just for PR purposes. The release after the offer was really weird.

I don't follow the Wings with the same detail as I do the Tigers but I see a lot of cap space on guys not playing. 

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A number of Wings between 1995-2010 seemed to take modest hometown discounts to stay. Since then, Holland has thrown around hometown premiums for lesser players to stay.

Abdelkader, Helm and Glendenning contracts made no sense when signed, make no sense now.

I'm less harsh towards the Ericsson deal. He just turned out to be a huge disappointment.

I don't get too fussed one way or the other about one year deals like for Vanek, Ott and Miller. None of those are the reason the Wings are where they are now.

I give Holland a pass on the Kronwall and Zetterberg contracts. Kronwall became crippled faster than hoped, it was always known that the last few years of Zetterberg's deal would look goofy but was considered worth given how it was signed in the Cup contending era.

Drafting has been fine, at least league average.

It's the failure to make trades - as I've said countless times before and others agree - that is my biggest beef.

 

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It takes two to trade, though.

Nothing made them sign Abdelkader, Glendenning or Helm to those deals.  That is my number 1 gripe because it was completely under his control.

EDIT: That written, I suspect *some* trades could have been made to help this team.

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1 hour ago, lordstanley said:

It's the failure to make trades - as I've said countless times before and others agree - that is my biggest beef.

Requiring a 1st round pick in return for Riley Sheahan is among Holland's trade failures.

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2 hours ago, lordstanley said:

Who's all in for the Hot Tankini?

They are gonna be crappy anyway unless they get some talent.

So unless they somehow gain access to talent heretofore unseen, I say tank you very much.

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I don't think the WIngs are in that bad of shape.  They don't have to fix the entire roster but they need better offense and a top dman or two. 

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I guess it depends what people mean by tanking. Trying to lose games and trying to put out a poor roster from the start of the season with a coach that's not trying to win is too extreme.

But going with a "youth movement" I would be for.

In a sense I think they should have started that movement once they missed out on Stamkos. They should not have extended Helm, they should not have signed Nielssen to that long of a contract. Next deadline I imagine they will have some tradeable rentals again with Tatar, Green, and Sheahan. And if they can get some young talent for Nyquist or Howard (if Vegas doesn't take him), they should do that.

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12 hours ago, Euphdude said:

Requiring a 1st round pick in return for Riley Sheahan is among Holland's trade failures.

Ridiculous.  They shouldn't sell low.

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On 3/3/2017 at 4:45 PM, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I guess it depends what people mean by tanking. Trying to lose games and trying to put out a poor roster from the start of the season with a coach that's not trying to win is too extreme.

So you wouldn't want to be the 76'ers of the NHL?

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So Svechnikov scores the winner in a shootout a couple of games ago and he is sent back down to GR - for the last two games?   Why?   So some scrub can be up with the team for the last two home games?   What's the point of this.  What is 3 games in Grand Rapids going to do for him that 2 games in the NHL won't?    

This really annoys me.    

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In the last year at Tiger Stadium, the second to last game - local boy Dave Borkowski started the game.  Through 8 innings he allowed 4 hits and only one earned run.  He was pitching a beauty of a game and they pulled him out in the 9th and it just pissed me off.   The kid's whole family was there - let him get a complete game and if he can't - let him be the one to lose it.   Give him that moment - the team had nothing to play for.   But no, they had to pull him.  It totally enraged me - like sending down Svechnikov at this point of the season.    

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Meh the Wings have a layoff and the Griffins were playing during it.  And to be honest, I would rather him be down in GR playing top line minutes and on the PP, etc. than getting 10ish minutes on a crappy Red Wings team with a coach known to be unpredictable with ice time and imposing random restrictions and punishments on young guys.  

Let him get his ice time on a good AHL team that is making a push into the playoffs I say.

Also he was an emergency callup, I'm not sure what the rules are regarding keeping those guys up.

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