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Should Kenny Holland be fired (Post Free Agent edition)

Should Kenny Holland be fired ?(Post - Free Agent Edition).   

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Kenny Holland be fired ? (Post - Free Agent Edition)

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      5
    • I just don't care anymore
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I was thinking about re-doing the thread myself to get a new poll, so no worries. To answer the question, yes of course Ken Holland should be fired. This organization is a ship sailing off without a place to go. Kenny has no plan in place to improve this team and make it competitive over the long-term. Floating on the ocean and hoping you can keep afloat until you reach land somewhere again is not a plan. Treading water is not a plan. Furthermore, the allegiance that he shows towards his own players and towards veterans over 30 has gotten to the point of absolute insanity. These allegiances are holding back the potential development of some of our younger players and are preventing the organization from actually seeing what it has in these players.

I'm no front office expert and couldn't tell you who the best fit to replace Kenny would be. However, I would like to pull someone who is from a winning organization and who understands the direction the game is going; both from an on-ice perspective and from an analytics-statistical perspective. Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman would be obvious first calls. I would also consider staying in house with Ryan Martin. Other names I'd be interested in hearing more about include . . .

Michael Futa (LA Kings: Director of Player Personnel)

Rob Blake (LA Kings: Assistant GM)

Paul Fenton (Nashville: Director of Scouting and Assistant GM)

Julien BriseBois (Tampa Bay: Assistant GM)

 

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3 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

It was a stupid thread then, and still is.

Ok, keep Holland and continue what, floating around as a 7th-8th-9th-10th place team? Eventually this playoff streak will end and we will miss the playoffs multiple years in a row and the excuse of "well, Holland's teams always make the playoffs" will be gone. The fact that you could be carrying Holland's water at this point is ridiculous. What do you need to see from Holland before you say to yourself "ok, it's time for a change." Does he actually have to miss 2-3-4-5 straight postseasons, trade away all his under 24 players, what is the metric?

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On 7/6/2016 at 2:25 PM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Ok, keep Holland and continue what, floating around as a 7th-8th-9th-10th place team? Eventually this playoff streak will end and we will miss the playoffs multiple years in a row and the excuse of "well, Holland's teams always make the playoffs" will be gone. The fact that you could be carrying Holland's water at this point is ridiculous. What do you need to see from Holland before you say to yourself "ok, it's time for a change." Does he actually have to miss 2-3-4-5 straight postseasons, trade away all his under 24 players, what is the metric?

I'd be fine moving on, but he's been criticized too much most likely. He ended up in a position where he had a pretty solid roster overall, but lacked a #1 D due to Lidstrom retiring and also a #1 caliber forward. The reason we haven't been better than a 1st or 2nd round exit is because we haven't been able to acquire those assets. Yes, that's his job, but they're incredibly difficult assets to acquire. He went hard for guys like Suter,Parise and Stamkos, but we simply weren't the choice in the end. We got offers that consisted of both Nyquist and Tatar plus other picks and prospects. That might have made us better, but it also might have just left us too thin with a bloated payroll(as young players who produce are always your best values). He's a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

So as fun as it is to ***** about stuff like Dan Cleary and Drew Miller or whatever else, those really aren't our main issues. Most GMs fill out the bottom of their roster with guys who they are comfortable with and who their coach is comfortable with because they fit/know the system and they know what to expect from them. Its really not that big of a deal. Hopefully he can pull off a trade for a guy like Fowler and fill one of our major holes though. 

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The problem with the Cleary's and the Miller's of the world is that they take up roster spots that guys like AA, Pulk and Mantha should be holding. These young players can't develop at an NHL level if Mikael Samuelsson, Darren Helm, Todd Bertuzzi, Dan Cleary, Drew Miller, Joakim Andersson etc. are eating up there minutes and ice time year in and year out. We already know what types of players Millers Helm and Andersson are. What we should be looking for is to see if Mantha, Pulk, Jurco, AA are better players than those guys and what they can deliver to the organization over the long term. 

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For one, they're not, they can both be rostered. Two, the idea that guys develop more if they move up to the big leagues is a fallacy IMO. Guys will make it up when they're ready. Its a faux problem

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2 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

For one, they're not, they can both be rostered. Two, the idea that guys develop more if they move up to the big leagues is a fallacy IMO. Guys will make it up when they're ready. Its a faux problem

This is one of my pet peeves with sports fans in general judging hockey and baseball prospects. It's as if their performance in the minors doesn't exist, because we can't see it.

"Get them up and let's see what they got."

But the organizations already see what they got. They have coaches and personnel watching them every game, every practice.

I should note this is just a generality. I think Nyquist and Tatar were nearly finished products marinated way too long in Grand Rapids, and AA obviously didn't get enough ice time in Detroit. But most guys need to finish their individual development of their complete game before being equipped for the show.

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3 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

This is one of my pet peeves with sports fans in general judging hockey and baseball prospects. It's as if their performance in the minors doesn't exist, because we can't see it.

"Get them up and let's see what they got."

But the organizations already see what they got. They have coaches and personnel watching them every game, every practice.

I should note this is just a generality. I think Nyquist and Tatar were nearly finished products marinated way too long in Grand Rapids, and AA obviously didn't get enough ice time in Detroit. But most guys need to finish their individual development of their complete game before being equipped for the show.

agreed. Also, we still have all of these players because Kenny didn't overpay in trades. 

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Baloney! There are big differences between the AHL game and the NHL game. Speed, strength, shooting ability, vision on the ice, defensive prowess, quality of netminders and on are all played at a much higher level in the big league. Guys have to adjust their game to all of those things. Leaving Mantha and AA in the AHL would be a waste at this point because of the differences in the two leagues. At some point, yes, you do have to see how your younger, inexperienced players are going to adjust to the big league play. Watching them in the AHL isn't going to tell you the entire story about their game and development.

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13 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Baloney! There are big differences between the AHL game and the NHL game. Speed, strength, shooting ability, vision on the ice, defensive prowess, quality of netminders and on are all played at a much higher level in the big league. Guys have to adjust their game to all of those things. Leaving Mantha and AA in the AHL would be a waste at this point because of the differences in the two leagues. At some point, yes, you do have to see how your younger, inexperienced players are going to adjust to the big league play. Watching them in the AHL isn't going to tell you the entire story about their game and development.

The point is, if they can't handle the speed, strength, shooting ability, vision on the ice, defensive prowess, blah blah blah at the AHL level they are not ready for the NHL.

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"All I'm saying is, we have too much depth our young guys are developing too long!" is a yawn worthy complaint. Our issue is the lack of a frontline player offensively and defensively, and that's the difference in us not going farther in the playoffs. I do think making them is nice in the mean time. I'm not into a tear down, and don't think it would have much value for us at this point. 

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Just now, Who is the Drizzle? said:

The point is, if they can't handle the speed, strength, shooting ability, vision on the ice, defensive prowess, blah blah blah at the AHL level they are not ready for the NHL.

But Mantha and AA clearly showed that they can play in the NHL. Now, thanks to a logjam of veteran forwards, there is a strong chance that this becomes 2013 all over again and Mantha and AA get to watch from the pressbox or get pushed back down to Grand Rapids to start the season.  Steve Ott, Drew Miller and Luke Glendening do not deserve to be on the opening day roster head of AA or Mantha.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

But Mantha and AA clearly showed that they can play in the NHL. Now, thanks to a logjam of veteran forwards, there is a strong chance that this becomes 2013 all over again and Mantha and AA get to watch from the pressbox or get pushed back down to Grand Rapids to start the season.  Steve Ott, Drew Miller and Luke Glendening do not deserve to be on the opening day roster head of AA or Mantha.

AA clearly showed he was ready. Mantha did some good things but I don't think his full game is there. I'd like both of those guys to earn their way on the roster this fall for sure, and I expect that to be so. I'll wait to complain about that not happening if/until it actually doesn't happen.

I'm not sure any other prospect is ready tho, which is more of what I was referring to.

Hopefully we can deal some of these guys for a top player.

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I think XO should be on the opening day roster too and he'll likely be with Grand Rapids for the seasons start. I have no clue what to make of Ryan Sproul anymore, so I'm not going to cry and moan if he's still down in the AHL.

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Mantha's 22 and I wouldn't mind seeing him dominate down there a little more, while cleaning up some of his rough edges when it comes to anything besides scoring. AA hasn't exactly dominated either. 

That said, I expect a forward or 2 to be traded for D and injuries happen, so this is a way to keep extra guys around who can contribute. Glendening and co are 3rd and 4th liner types. 

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 11:57 AM, Who is the Drizzle? said:

This is one of my pet peeves with sports fans in general judging hockey and baseball prospects. It's as if their performance in the minors doesn't exist, because we can't see it.

"Get them up and let's see what they got."

But the organizations already see what they got. They have coaches and personnel watching them every game, every practice.

I should note this is just a generality. I think Nyquist and Tatar were nearly finished products marinated way too long in Grand Rapids, and AA obviously didn't get enough ice time in Detroit. But most guys need to finish their individual development of their complete game before being equipped for the show.

I guess my feeling on this is that if they've reached a certain age and still aren't NHL ready, why are we hanging on to them?  This is another one of those things that made sense "back in the day" when there was no salary cap and the Wings were loaded with HOF'ers.  You could let guys "overripen" in GR and ease them in on the 4th line to play with veteran superstars and let them take over when the vets decided to step aside.  It just isn't that way any more and Holland just refuses to change his way of doing things.  AA has to fight for one of a few open spots?  Are you kidding me?  What more could this guy have done in the limited time he was given?  What is this talk of "depth"?  Sure, they have an overabundance of 3rd line guys and bottom pairing defensemen.  But I wouldn't call that depth.  Why is Brendan Smith still on the roster?  He's a healthy scratch, not good enough to play in the playoffs, but he's still here?  WTF? 

Signing Helm, Glendenning, Miller, Ott.  There aren't words.  I can't even stand to listen to him any more.  I'm almost to the point of wanting the Wings to miss the playoffs.  Not for a "tank" per se, but to get Holland out and get this team going in a new direction.  This year the opportunity was there to remake the team and he stuck with the same old tired unsuccessful formula.

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AA is almost certainly on the roster unless he tanks somehow before the season. As I said, he clearly showed he was ready for the big time.

I'd like for him to keep the mindset that he earns everything he gets. Good attitude to have with young guys coming to a veteran roster.

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That's not a bad way to go, making the kids earn their way onto the roster.

But I'm still on the Tater Salad Train, and I've been right from the start, that, unless we are signing major players to actually make us a contender, not a pretender, then, rather than sign a bunch of 30+ y.o. journeymen (ours or others) for too much money and too many years, push the kids into gaining NHL experience. They might end up being a bunch of NHL journeymen but... I'd rather pay cheap salaries for young-kid-journeymen, our own, instead of go out and do just exactly what Holland went out and did. It resets our salary cap and, if the kids grow enough, THEN we make trades, sign FA's, etc... that puts us back into contention. That might be easier said than done, but... IMO, I think that actually shortens any rebuild, because we still do have a lot of talent on the team, a lot of youngsters who have been in the NHL a few years or less, and a lot of Grand Rapids youngsters who deserve shots in the NHL, and we won't know how quickly we can get them up to speed since Holland did not pick the high ground or the low ground, he chose the middle ground - patches or patchwork vets. I think that puts us back into the 8-9-10 slot. 

Not what I was looking for. Go big or go young. We got neither.

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Outside of AA, Mantha and Bertuzzi, I really don't see much in the way of future Wings any time within the next few years.  If guys like Frk, Callahan, Sproul, etc, can't crack this roster by now, they aren't going to. It isn't like they're being blocked by HOF talent in their prime. Is the goal to be Calder Cup contenders every year?  Are Miller, Helm, Glendening going to add more to the team than any of the GR guys will?  What's especially frustrating is between all those guys it's like, almost $6 million.  There's Keith Yandle, a guy who could filled a huge need, under 30,wasn't ridiculously expensive and was available.  Then you fill your 4th line with journeymen or GR guys, not guys signed to long term multi million dollar deals.  I get the feeling that Holland feels like he's so much smarter than everyone else, and he gets it and we all don't and we all just don't see the genius that is Ken Holland.  He says he's signing Vanek because he'll be motivated after being cut.  So does that mean we should resign Stephen Weiss? 

I mean, everyone is desperate for a defenseman and yet no one wants Kyle Quincey, who at times this season, was one of our better blueliners.  That's depressing.  No changes to the god awful defense.  I don't know how anyone can back Holland after that.  Not even remotely expecting any kind of Cam Fowler type deal.  We will either get Quincey back or sign someone like Wisnewski, because you know, he's motivated and a veteran guy.

It seems as though he's done the same thing with the Pavel Datsyuk situation as he did with Lidstrom.  He knew the day was coming w, and his plan was to sign an over 30 UFA to an expensive long term deal and a few guys off the scrap heap and call it good. 

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12 hours ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

AA is almost certainly on the roster unless he tanks somehow before the season. As I said, he clearly showed he was ready for the big time.

I'd like for him to keep the mindset that he earns everything he gets. Good attitude to have with young guys coming to a veteran roster.

What guy on the roster now is not going to be there so that AA can? It won't be Steve Ott if that's who you're thinking. Won't be Glendening or Miller either. Can't be Teemu because he's on LTIR. Jurco? He's out of options, so he's either claimed on waivers by someone else or eating Hot & Ready's in the pressbox. I make the sad prediction of believing that AA doesn't make the team to start the season. That will be a travesty when it happens to.

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