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Gehringer_2

The 2016 Pitching Staff

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Fulmer is the 3 best starter and that was obvious after the first 3 innings in his 1st ML start. 

This team desperately needs Boyd to show that he is competent so they can remove one of two bums from the rotation. 

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It reall is a shame that the Tigers felt they needed to go two years with Pelfrey. Fulmer Boyd and Norris all have proved effective at times. Problem is that the ownership still thinks this team is close. It's not.

Not capable of beating good pitching. That is what a champion has to do and this team is not capable of finding a way

I would have been happy going in to this year with JV Anibal Greene Norris and Boyd with Fulmer in the wings

Zimmerman is too much money for too long. Glad JV had the time off last year to rejuvenate him. More teams should consider that

Bullpen has been a surprise. I think some of the issues could be fixed by using starters in the pen more often in the minor leagues so that they have that experience.

VerHagen was a good example until the use wore him down and he was DLd. Farmer has been effective in pen as well. I think Sanchez is about to be a pen piece as well. Two innings at a time twice a week would be a valuable pair with Pelfrey

KRod has been good enough

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The Tigers are on pace for about 85 wins. How are they not close? 

And they have beaten good pitching. 

I'm all for criticism but at least be factual. 

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Tigers 3rd in the league in OBP, 3rd is SLG, 3rd in OPS, 3rd in wRC+... but let's whine about how they "can't beat good pitching"... not just they, they "aren't capable of finding a way". #analysis

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2 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Tigers 3rd in the league in OBP, 3rd is SLG, 3rd in OPS, 3rd in wRC+... but let's whine about how they "can't beat good pitching"... not just they, they "aren't capable of finding a way". #analysis

This seems like a good spot for me to vent about the guy at the bar with the annoying voice who says he's a Tigers fan. Except that everyone on the team sucks and he bets against them and you only hear his voice when something goes wrong. But yeah, he's a fan.

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All the whining isn't so bad, it's that he's convinced himself he's right and is completely unable to hear logic stating otherwise. Every bar/message board has one of these. 

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2 minutes ago, Yoda said:

All the whining isn't so bad, it's that he's convinced himself he's right and is completely unable to hear logic stating otherwise. Every bar/message board has one of these. 

True that. #hottake

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1 hour ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

This seems like a good spot for me to vent about the guy at the bar with the annoying voice who says he's a Tigers fan. Except that everyone on the team sucks and he bets against them and you only hear his voice when something goes wrong. But yeah, he's a fan.

I wonder if that guy is related to stan?

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How do you know it's good pitching if it's unusual for a team to not beat it?  

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They've beaten Cole, Smyly, Archer, Fernandez this year 

They've lost to Scherzer, Hamels, Kubler, Nola

That's among the guys that most people would consider up level pitchers. 

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their biggest problem against good pitching is run prevention. Their biggest problem period is run prevention.

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6 hours ago, Indianasniff said:

It reall is a shame that the Tigers felt they needed to go two years with Pelfrey. Fulmer Boyd and Norris all have proved effective at times. Problem is that the ownership still thinks this team is close. It's not.

Not capable of beating good pitching. That is what a champion has to do and this team is not capable of finding a way

I would have been happy going in to this year with JV Anibal Greene Norris and Boyd with Fulmer in the wings

Zimmerman is too much money for too long. Glad JV had the time off last year to rejuvenate him. More teams should consider that

Bullpen has been a surprise. I think some of the issues could be fixed by using starters in the pen more often in the minor leagues so that they have that experience.

VerHagen was a good example until the use wore him down and he was DLd. Farmer has been effective in pen as well. I think Sanchez is about to be a pen piece as well. Two innings at a time twice a week would be a valuable pair with Pelfrey

KRod has been good enough

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They have no chance.  Should of traded JD Martinez.  

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 so objectively - where do we stand pitching wise after the 9 run BP collapse? How do we get the most best arms we have in the games that matter?

BP -

KROD : Doing his job/Keeps his job

J Wilson: Doing his job/keeps his job

------------after that everything is dicey in the BP

Kyle Ryan: Probably keeps his job

Lowe: Maybe improving but jury is out

Alex Wilson: Can't continue

VerHagen: Apparently hurt

Farmer: a BP maybe but probably doesn't have the stuff to stick

Saupold: probably not MLB material

Toledo candidates

Kensing: See Saupold

Giulmet: See Kensing

Rondon: going nowhere fast

Hardy: Unknown at this point

So basically a lot of nothing

-----Potential moves to relief

Greene comes off DL to BP

---I would hate to see it in principle but may be a must move in practice:

Pelfrey goes to BP (replace with Norris in rotation)
    Pelfrey has his walks under control again and can throw hard.  I have seen him use a 96 mph high FB to strike a guy out. More of that as a reliever and he might be helpful there.
    
Boyd to BP
    when he is fresh he can K people and maybe working short he throws 95 and it gives him a little more room for error
    
so that gives you KRod, J. Wilson, Lowe, Boyd, Ryan, Greene, Pelfrey as the potential BP

(I'm sure I probably missed someone...)
    

Starting rotation ends up JV, ZIMM, Norris, Fulmer and Sanchez. We just live with whatever Sanchez does, try to skip as many of his starts as we can (though we already will need to skip some for Fulmer). Norris and Fulmer both babies - but tough ****.

That's  the best I can come up with as the "end game" short of a substantial trade - which is all that is left if there isn't an internal rearrangement that will do it.

BIg downside: with Pelfrey, Greene and Boyd in the pen, we have no 6th starter in hand.

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I was just going to post this thread!!! Exactly this thread!!!

A few 2016 Detroit Tigers Pitching Staff thoughts that were running through my head:

1) I think this will be a season long thread as there are a lot of (pitching) issues that will continuously pop up throughout this year: (A) Rookies or near-rookies will get a lot of discussion. (B) Particularly on innings limits. This is going to be an issue with Fulmer (who is likely in the foreseeable rotation for at least the next few months), Norris, who I still think is the best option aside from Fulmer (so far) to settle this rotation and relegate Sanchez and/ or Pelfrey to the BP, Boyd, who is already making appearances, and maybe even Greene, who has not pitched a lot of innings (never more than 154 in a season) on an annual basis... There will be some juggling, and we'll wanna gab about it. (C) Trade deadline. (D) How much Pelfrey and Sanchez suck, and what can we do about it. (E) How do we improve the Bullpen. (F) Can our pitching get us into the Playoffs/ very far in the playoffs if we do make it.

I see this discussed in every game thread so... why not have an "Omnibus Pitching" thread?!

 

2) So... I'm going to start with Pelfrey and Sanchez. I think Pelfrey should stay in the rotation, and Sanchez should go to the bullpen. Reasons: (A) Pelfrey is a gas can. doesn't matter starter or BP, he sucks at letting runners on base, who often score. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY we can have him come into ANY game in which there are already runners on base. Even Long Relievers have to come into the middle of the inning, if the starter has run into serious trouble/ is having a bad day/ too high a pitch count... meaning it could be the middle of the 4th, or 5th, and we're down 4-3 with bases loaded and no outs... and we would bring in Pelfrey? Nope. Won't even contemplate that... It is beyond my comprehension and therefore it cannot exist. (B) Sanchez, on the other hand, can actually get people out/ keep runners off the bases. At least relative to our other long relievers, and certainly relative to Pelfrey. In fact, even though he has been struggling with the HR's, between 2013 to 2015, his 1st 60 pitches yielded roughly a .645 OPS against. Pitches 61-75, .905 OPS. This year not as good (.725 1st 30 pitches, .840 pitches 31-45, >1.000 OPS pitches 46+), last year worse than that 3-year run (.730 1st 45 pitches, .800 pitches 46-60, >1.000 OPS pitches 61+). The solution for Sanchez is to make him a long reliever, and I don't care what his salary is, it's a sunk cost. Maybe going to the BP will allow him to relax, give it his all for 2-3 innings, and he'll improve his #'s not just overall, but excluding the bad 3rd-time-around #'s, and also providing excellent #'s comparative to his usage (as a middle/ long reliever). It would certainly be a boon to the BP if Sanchez could come in for 2-3 whenever needed, and get back to the .650-ish OPS for those innings.

 

3) How can we consider moving Sanchez to the BP? Gets us back to the rookies. First off, we know Pelfrey and Sanchez are both getting us 5 innings and that's it, then it is either Sanchez-implosion 3rd time around the batting order, or we are already losing 6-3 because it was Pelfrey's turn to start. Rookies can't be worse than that. 

But even despite Pelfrey's crappiness, I'm still only comfortable with, at this point, putting two rookies/ near-rookies into the rotation, not 3. Maybe later in the season I would change my mind, but I'm not there yet. So... I wanna hard-code rotation spots. Zimmermann and JV, obviously. Pelfrey at the back end? Yeah, sure, I'll put up with his shenanigans a little while longer... even though I hate his starts with extreme prejudice. Sanchez to the BP? Makes sense to me. I wanna hard-code Fulmer into the rotation right now though. Until he hits innings limits, or proves otherwise. Which brings us to Sanchez's replacement(s), which is a little more tricky. I believe the following: that Norris is the best pitcher to put into the spot... eventually. He's not pitching very well right now which is why Boyd got the start tonight. But I firmly believe Norris will get back on track, and be the correct pitcher to put in the #4 spot. Also, for now, I don't want to move either Greene or Boyd to the BP, I wanna move Sanchez to the BP, and insert 1 of Boyd/ Greene/ Norris into his rotation spot, leaving the other two to continue being starters at Toledo. I think having two of them as starters in Toronto, will especially come into play when we start juggling pitching limits, or 1 of them getting hot (Norris) to replace whoever is less hot. And it will also come in handy for 6th starter needs in order to line up correctly with dates (one pitcher could be on schedule/ the other might be in-between starts... always better to have two capable 6th starters, due to scheduling, than just one...). Besides, maybe Sanchez gets himself back to the rotation if he can right himself, and then, and ONLY then, do I consider moving Greene or any other starter to the BP. It's Sanchez who has to go to the BP right now, and the sooner the better IMO.

 

So I guess those are my three main, "right now" thoughts on our pitching staff: (1) This will be a season long, almost every day hot topic; (2) No way Pelfrey to the BP, gotta stick with him as the #5, but move Sanchez there now; and (3) I want to pencil in Fulmer as the #3 starter, right now; and rely on Greene/ Boyd/ Norris as the #4 starter in Detroit, and the #'s 6 & 7 starters in Toledo.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

 so objectively - where do we stand pitching wise after the 9 run BP collapse? How do we get the most best arms we have in the games that matter?

...

(1) Pelfrey goes to BP (replace with Norris in rotation)
    Pelfrey has his walks under control again and can throw hard.  I have seen him use a 96 mph high FB to strike a guy out. More of that as a reliever and he might be helpful there.
    

(2) Greene comes off DL to BP

---I would hate to see it in principle but may be a must move in practice:

Boyd to BP
    when he is fresh he can K people and maybe working short he throws 95 and it gives him a little more room for error
 

(3) We just live with whatever Sanchez does, try to skip as many of his starts as we can (though we already will need to skip some for Fulmer). Norris and Fulmer both babies - but tough ****.

 

(4) BIg downside: with Pelfrey, Greene and Boyd in the pen, we have no 6th starter in hand.

I moved some of your stuff around, I hope you don't mind...

(1) UGGHHH!!! I hate the idea of Pelfrey in the BP. He just allows way too many runners! Gas can in the middle of an inning (see my example above)? No thanks. I think Sanchez could, possibly, get his mojo back by moving to the BP. Pelfrey...? He just sucks. I'd rather he starts and we just get whatever we can out of Pelfrey starts... and hope that Sanchez does indeed get his mojo back by going to the BP. I think there's better upside there. Maybe Sanchez even gets that mojo back, and gets himself back into the rotation by doing so.

 

(2) Your #4 (err, the #4 I made out of your post) is why I don't think anyone except Sanchez goes to the BP. We still need 6th and 7th starters in Toledo to be "on call". And I put two starters there since there may be a scheduling/ rotation spot problem so I really want two starters available at Toledo, not just 1. I really do NOT want to put ANY of Boyd/ Greene/ Norris into the BP. Either Sanchez or Pelfrey, only 1 of them, and I would prefer Sanchez.

 

(3) See #1 above. I think we have to keep Pelfrey at #5 starter, and Sanchez has more upside/ is a much better option (read: less of a gas can) in the BP as a Long Reliever.

 

(4) Boyd is getting those starts for right now, Norris and Greene stay in the rotation at Toledo is my preference. If Norris gets hot, then maybe he replaces Boyd and Greene/ Boyd stay in Toledo rotation. If Sanchez gets hot and works out kinks in the BP, then maybe he gets himself back into the rotation later in the season, when Fulmer and/or Norris hit innings limits, and only then maybe it makes sense to flip another starter (could even be Fulmer to keep his innings low) into the BP. Lots of options here, but I think we should put only 1 starter into the BP as a long reliever for now... and make adjustments as the season progresses.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

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what to do with Pelfrey/Sanchez is a quandary. I read one of your paragraphs and agreed with the logic but feel it applies better to the other guy! LOL

Three reasons I put Pelfrey in the pen before Sanchez

-he's done it before

-he throws harder

-he is walking fewer recently

and maybe the 4th which goes without saying is: What if Anibal doesn't want to go?

But I don't think any of these are showstoppers. If they can persuade Sanchez to go to relief and he can be effective - it would be fine with me. Pelfrey being a ground ball pitcher as starter also gives you more time to see he is getting in trouble and gives the team more opportunities to get an out before things get out of hand in a given inning.

The final argument in favor of leaving Pelfrey is that his velocity is tracking up this month and he may yet get a little better and thus reduce the pressure to get him out of the rotation.

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I think the Tigers planned for Pelfrey to end up in the bullpen all along, so that is a logical destination for him.  I do think there is a chance he could surprise in 1 to 2 inning doses. 

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I am so leery of Pelfrey and all his base-runners going to the BP. He's going to come into the middle of innings, with runners already on base. And I know the argument about GB pitchers getting double plays but... I'm just so leery of Pelfrey. Even though you're probably right Lee, they may have been planning that all along.

 

I still think that if there is a pitcher who could actually benefit by going to the BP, and I also think he would be a much more effective reliever, in general, it's Sanchez.

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And Gehringer: what do you mean Pelfrey's been in the BP before? The two appearances in the BP in 2007? He's been nothing but a starter in every other MLB appearance aside from twice 8 years ago. Either one of these guys is going to the BP for reasons other than any history/ experience with being a reliever...

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1 more thing... As for his recent improvement, batters hit .349 with 3 HR's (1 per 7 inn's) against him in April, .345 with 7 HR's (1 per <4 inn's) against him in May, and 11 hits in 6 inn's his last start (.440 BA with 2 HR's (1 per 3 inn's)).

 

I'm not impressed.

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5 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

1 more thing... As for his recent improvement, batters hit .349 with 3 HR's (1 per 7 inn's) against him in April, .345 with 7 HR's (1 per <4 inn's) against him in May, and 11 hits in 6 inn's his last start (.440 BA with 2 HR's (1 per 3 inn's)).

 

I'm not impressed.

OK re Pelfrey

with SSS warning and all that:

in his last three starts, Pelfrey worked 5 and gave up only 2 runs each time. (I'm not going to charge him with the 2 he gave up in the 6th on the 23rd when anyone who had ever watched a baseball game and had a brain would not have allowed him back out there after 5). That is his best stretch of the season. also this - trend for 2016 seems clearly improving. Anibal's fastball has come and gone this season as he played with his mechanics but no clear positive trend I can discern. But I mean we are talking Yugo vs Pinto comparisons here.

5203_P_SI_20160523.png

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