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RedRamage

Biggest remaining need post draft?

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Personally I judge that at the time it comes to make the decision.

Not a fan of the if so and so performs like x, what will he be worth discussion.  We don't know if he will perform like x or what the qb landscape will be at the time the decision is made, so I feel there are too many variables to discuss it substantively or for it to have much meaning in the context of what he likely will be worth.

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3 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'd like to see Stafford and the team succeed of course but we're eight years into his pro career and and we're still saying this in the context that it might or might not happen. I wouldn't mind a "maybe he will, maybe he won't" mindset if our QB were being paid $11-$12-$14 mil a season, but for a guy getting paid like Stafford, we need more than maybes, hopes and wishes. We need results. I'm no so sure anymore that Stafford is talented enough to carry a team where it needs to be without a ton of help around him. Hopefully I am proven wrong this season.

We live in a world where Brock Osweiler makes a higher AAV than Stafford. No QBs are worth 11-14 mil a season. They are worth 7 or less as a backup or 18+ to start. There really isn't middle ground very often. Maybe the occasional Ryan Fitzpatrick who is older and gets squeezed by the market. 

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3 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:
3 hours ago, Euphdude said:

 

I'm just expecting more out of the soon to be $24 million dollar kid. No QB can do it alone for sure. I just want the excuses to stop and Stafford to step it up. The coaching, the scheme, poor pass protection, the running game (or lack of), depth at wide receiver, dropped passes, players blowing up in the lockerroom, etc., etc. have been doled out for this dude year after year and I am tired.

T&P talks about the need for Stafford to have a dynamic season for us to have a chance, and he's right. I want a dynamic statistical season from Stafford to finally translate into points on the board and wins in the standings. He flashes the yards (and sometimes the TD's) but never the wins and that's when the excuse express comes rolling through town. Win some dang games and be the reason we make the playoffs this season.

But what if the reality is simply that its a team game and those are't excuses, they are just what happened? 

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3 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

We live in a world where Brock Osweiler makes a higher AAV than Stafford. No QBs are worth 11-14 mil a season. They are worth 7 or less as a backup or 18+ to start. There really isn't middle ground very often. Maybe the occasional Ryan Fitzpatrick who is older and gets squeezed by the market. 

And Matt Stafford in two years is going to be Eli Manning rich or richer, worth in my estimation $23-$24-$25 million per. He'll be the highest paid QB in the league by someone, Lions or otherwise. My question is, do you pay him now or after this season or let him come close to being a FA and pay him then?

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14 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Why not make the decision now? Why wait and risk allowing Stafford to test the waters of free agency?

If you make the decision now then you have to bear the risk he doesn't improve or worse regresses.

 

Saying you don't want to risk paying him too much but want to sign him before he reaches free agency seems to me like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.

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14 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

If you make the decision now then you have to bear the risk he doesn't improve or worse regresses.

 

Saying you don't want to risk paying him too much but want to sign him before he reaches free agency seems to me like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.

I'm not saying I do or don't want to resign him. I'd have been fine trading him at the draft this year and I'm fine with hanging onto him now. I'm just saying that so many are so convinced that Stafford is our guy and if you believe that, you might as well resign him now. Unless his performance on the field completely tanks, his asking price is only going to get higher from here.

Furthermore, if Stafford is as good as many seem to think he is and isn't a part of the problems that plague this team, we shouldn't have to worry about any type of regression in performance or production.

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Well, then I'd suggest just saying that instead of couching it in 'what you would sign him for' talk.  It wasn't obvious to me that was what you were angling at.

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It's generally rare for a team and player to agree to any sort of deal that is "team-friendly" or "player-friendly."

There are of course isolated cases where a player/agent is extremely stupid, or a GM/owner is stupid.

So, that said, sign him now, sign him later, don't sign him and just sign other guys with that money. Whatever the case, it will probably be defensible from both sides.

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5 minutes ago, Shelton said:

It's generally rare for a team and player to agree to any sort of deal that is "team-friendly" or "player-friendly."

There are of course isolated cases where a player/agent is extremely stupid, or a GM/owner is stupid.

So, that said, sign him now, sign him later, don't sign him and just sign other guys with that money. Whatever the case, it will probably be defensible from both sides.

If Stafford doesn't get his contract soon, his asking price is going to go through the roof and he'll end up the highest paid QB in the league IMO. Eli Manning at 35 years old got 4/$21 and $65 guaranteed. If you wait on negotiating with Stafford and allow him to get close to free agency then I think you're looking at a contract that looks something like 4/$25 with $70 guaranteed and a $30 million dollar signing bonus. If Stafford stays the statistical course, par for his career, is he really a $25 million dollar QB?

Also, I know that $25 million figure is me pulling a number out of thin air, it could be more, could be less. I don't see Stafford getting any less than $22 per though, just don't see it.

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If what you say is true he would be a fool to sign a contract now.

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Just now, Shelton said:

If what you say is true he would be a fool to sign a contract now.

If money is his end game, then yes, he would be.

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12 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If money is his end game, then yes, he would be.

The goal for 99% of NFL players (and workers in general) is to maximize income, and I'm certain Stafford and his agent will take every step to maximize the value of his next contract, which will likely be the most lucrative of his career.

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If money is his end game, then yes, he would be.

If money isn't his end game, then why are you worried about how much he will demand when he gets closer to free agency?

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14 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

And Matt Stafford in two years is going to be Eli Manning rich or richer, worth in my estimation $23-$24-$25 million per. He'll be the highest paid QB in the league by someone, Lions or otherwise. My question is, do you pay him now or after this season or let him come close to being a FA and pay him then?

I definitely wouldn't mind getting it done now. Your numbers might be a bit high, but they still don't scare me off. The QB market is low right now(based on previous contracts and the percentage the cap has gone up), its bound to take a jump forward. 

I mean, look at this offseason. The options if you didn't have a QB were basically

-pay a complete unknown who couldn't top Brian Hoyer's stats 18 mil a year

- Trade 9000 draft picks for a top rookie

- Roll with a highly underwhelming QB prospect and Mr.**** Fumble. 

I'm gonna go ahead and pay Stafford myself. 

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2 hours ago, Shelton said:

It's generally rare for a team and player to agree to any sort of deal that is "team-friendly" or "player-friendly."

There are of course isolated cases where a player/agent is extremely stupid, or a GM/owner is stupid.

So, that said, sign him now, sign him later, don't sign him and just sign other guys with that money. Whatever the case, it will probably be defensible from both sides.

Getting guaranteed money as early as possible has historically been something that has gotten players to take less AAV. In that way, it would be team friendly to a degree, though we take the risk in terms of him being injured 

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Getting guaranteed money as early as possible has historically been something that has gotten players to take less AAV. In that way, it would be team friendly to a degree, though we take the risk in terms of him being injured 

Exactly. It's only team friendly if you assume no injuries or future ineffectiveness. But you can't assume that. It's built in to the deal. It's player friendly as much as it is team friendly.

If you instead choose to wait, you could be better off. The likelihood of something bad happening probably isn't very high, but it's not zero either. So the most you will get is a slight discount. That's great if everything goes as hoped. But it could be very bad if things go poorly.

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I've come out multiple times saying I think Stafford is the real deal, so read this next part with my bias in mind, if you choose.

Absolutely lock stafford up today at whatever the going rate for a tier 1-2 qb is. The NFL cap is experiencing insane growth (averaging 10+ million increase over the last 4 years), and while you are balking at 24 million now, in 2 years, that will be the rate for a below average QB, let alone Stafford. If you are trying to pin 2 years from now as "the year" it would be nice to have what will be at worst a good cost controlled QB you can build a good team around.

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Stafford shouldnt sign anything right now.  He'll command more money as time goes on.

And he is not leaving because the lions will franchise him before that happens.  Their cap looks a lot better now that mayhew/lewand are gone.

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Lol, the new regime has done nothing really as far as our future cap just yet. Our cap situation is better because Suh left and Calvin retired. Cap management was never our issue, other than the SUh contract. That was a big one, and deserving of criticism, but lets be accurate. Lewand was great with the cap

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I would prefer that the Lions not worry about the cap at all, and draft well enough that they can avoid free agency altogether.

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 11:11 AM, Nastradamus said:

........Lewand was great with the cap

If true, the Suh situation would have been a lot smoother. His cap hit became gigantic for the Lions. CJ's cap hit became gigantic for the Lions.

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 10:11 AM, Nastradamus said:

Lol, the new regime has done nothing really as far as our future cap just yet. Our cap situation is better because Suh left and Calvin retired. Cap management was never our issue, other than the SUh contract. That was a big one, and deserving of criticism, but lets be accurate. Lewand was great with the cap

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

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