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7 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

PS: There are certain times in a franchises life when it's time to push the reset button.

Well today, for the Red Wings, that time is now.

It depends on what you mean by 'reset.' I'd love to jettison some guys and sign Stamkos. But I doubt anybody would really take Ericcson or Kronwall or Howard. You'd probably have to include a prospect or take back a bad contract or something, which doesn't help the reset. I'm not sure if Nyquist gets anything.

But yeah, I'd love to see the young depth making up the 3rd and 4th lines and upgrade the top lines, if that's at all possible.

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14 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'd don't get what the system that hangs the Wings with Pavel's cap when he flies the coup is supposed to accomplish.

I guess the original thought was they didn't want teams signing a 35 year old to an 8 year deal for 50 million dollars and then having him retire after a year or two and getting some sort of cap circumvention advantage.

I'm not at all sad to see Datsyuk go.  He has been playing like he didn't want to be here.  I agree that Pavel could not have handled it worse.  He's told so many different stories, it's tough to believe anything he says.  I really don't even know why they did the "we haven't decided for sure" bit after it had come out he was leaving.  Most of his actions haven't been baked up with words.  He seems to be throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks so that the fans won't think poorly of him.

For as much flak as he takes, I think Ken Holland has handled this with the utmost professionalism and class and has treated Datsyuk far better than he deserves to be for the difficulty forced upon him.  I have no problem trading a mid round pick and a Jurco/Pulkinnen type if it means opening up that much to hopefully sign a Stamkos or Yandle.

That said, I think it's a good thing and hopefully it will motivate Nyquist and Tatar to feel like they can take the reins. 

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54 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

It depends on what you mean by 'reset.' I'd love to jettison some guys and sign Stamkos. But I doubt anybody would really take Ericcson or Kronwall or Howard. You'd probably have to include a prospect or take back a bad contract or something, which doesn't help the reset. I'm not sure if Nyquist gets anything...

No, that's NOT what I mean.

By reset, I do not mean including prospects or trading Nyquist or Pulkinnen or Jurco in order to dump a contract. That doesn't really work in a youth movement.

Or maybe that's how I should have termed it: youth movement. Instead of reset.

So... forget Stamkos, I don't think we have a shot anyways. And it would cost losing a young player & draft choice in order to dump Pav's salary in order to even have a "chance" at signing him. And I think we don't have a realistic chance of signing him. So move on.

Expansion draft next year? I could see them taking Howard. Aside from that, re-signing our own FA's? Nope. Bye Helm, etal. If age > 28, bye. Richards, bye, Helm, bye, Miller, bye, Quincey, bye, Cleary, bye; next year: Glendening, bye, and I'm iffy on Smith... We'd be buying into nothing but decline years. Mediocrity. 

By reset, I mean letting vets walk in FA and replacing them with rooks. Eat Pav's contract, don't incur costs (player/ draft pick) in dumping it. If it tightens up our Cap this year and forces us to go with more kids than vets... yeah, that works for me. Maybe I should really call this Cleaning House instead.

But again, I do NOT advocate incurring player/draft costs in order to dump bad contracts like Kronwall/ Datsyuk/ Howard/ etc. Let those contracts die out and just keep replacing them with kids.

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This was just a blunder by Holland. Datsyuk's agent (Gary Greenstin) came in doing what agents do - asking for big dollars and a long contract term. Holland effectively admits that he let Greenstin take control of the negotiations, and he effectively admits that he (Holland) was unaware of Datsyuk's thinking at the start of the new contract. Call it laziness or sloppiness or whatever else, but Holland should not have committed those years to an aging player without having a deeper understanding of the player's intentions.

Holland explained why he didn't simply sign Datsyuk to a one-year extension in 2013?

"He's a star, he's our best player," Holland said. "His agent walked in and wanted to do a five-year deal. What do you think would have happened if I countered with a one-year deal? He would have been on another team.

"Hindsight's 20-20. I don't think Pav had a conversation with Gary Greenstin about when he wanted to retire. I think that when Pav signed a contract he wanted to be here and when he got into the start of the first year, for the reasons that you heard today (family), he made a decision that he didn't want to be in the National Hockey League anymore, he wanted to go back home."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/06/red_wings_ken_holland_no_hard.html

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7 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'd don't get what the system that hangs the Wings with Pavel's cap when he flies the coup is supposed to accomplish.

because they signed him after the age of 35.    If he was retiring they'd still have to pay it, but it wouldn't bother me as much, but they are either stuck with 7.5 million of dead money or they dump it but probably lose one really good player, one really good prospect AND a high draft pick for the other team taking on the dead money.    Either way, the Wings are getting tagged while he plays professionally somewhere else.   If they don't figure out how to move this money and land a major free agent like Stamkos, Holland should absolutely be fired.   You have to know when to walk away from a star player on the decline.    Do you think the Cardinals wanted Albert Pujols to leave, but they played that brilliantly.   Steve Yzerman sent Maritn St. Louis packing - he didn't hesitate.   Pavel didn't want to be here, his play has been uneven the last 2-3 years and he's been a non-factor in the playoffs.   Can't be all buddy-buddy all the time, gotta make tough moves - Holland is not capable of it.   Ask Dan Cleary - and Samuelssen and Bertuzzi and countless others.    this will be a team with two 5 million dollar goalies (at least until the Las Vegas Scorpions take Jimmy Howard next year in the expansion draft).    this is a mess.   

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2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

 

This was just a blunder by Holland. Datsyuk's agent (Gary Greenstin) came in doing what agents do - asking for big dollars and a long contract term. Holland effectively admits that he let Greenstin take control of the negotiations, and he effectively admits that he (Holland) was unaware of Datsyuk's thinking at the start of the new contract. Call it laziness or sloppiness or whatever else, but Holland should not have committed those years to an aging player without having a deeper understanding of the player's intentions.

 

 

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/06/red_wings_ken_holland_no_hard.html

You have to really be a major Holland hater to try and pin this on him.  I really don't get what fans expected Holland to do.  Martin St. Louis demanded a trade, to one team.  That's why he was traded.  Pujolz was an UFA, totally different situation.  Pavel still had a year left on his contract when they began talking and his agent asked for a 5 year deal. Even a declining Pavel Datsyuk is still a fairly productive NHL player.  You can blame Holland for many things, but this one is 100% on Datsyuk. 

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1 hour ago, Kacie said:

You have to really be a major Holland hater to try and pin this on him.  I really don't get what fans expected Holland to do.  Martin St. Louis demanded a trade, to one team.  That's why he was traded.  Pujolz was an UFA, totally different situation.  Pavel still had a year left on his contract when they began talking and his agent asked for a 5 year deal. Even a declining Pavel Datsyuk is still a fairly productive NHL player.  You can blame Holland for many things, but this one is 100% on Datsyuk. 

Yeah, I agree with this 100% too.

It's BS to lay this on Holland. He was misled by Pav & his agent, and Pav didn't "fess" up about where his heart truly lay, which would've been the honorable thing to do. It was a money grab.

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I really don't get what fans expected Holland to do.

Um, negotiate? That's his job, right? The agent set the frame, took the upper hand, and Holland got stuck in a corner.

The real issue though is that it seems that Datsyuk and his agent both knew he was eyeing a return to Russia, but Kenny didn't. Seriously? It shouldn't be a big surprise that an aging player who has family in another country would be torn between staying with a (mediocre) NHL team and going to raise his daughter. He is not the first NHL player to go back to Russia. I don't get the sense that Kenny ever seriously explored that possibility.

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There had been some speculation that Pavel Datsyuk might go to the KHL once his contract with the Red Wings expires after next season.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/pavel-datsyuk-signs-three-year-extension-with-red-wings/

Pavel Datsyuk will be heading back to Russia in the next week or so.And one thing Red Wings general manager Ken Holland didn't want floating around out there were rumors of Datsyuk's future in Detroit.That's why a deal was done before Datsyuk headed back to his native country, inking one of the league's best two-way forwards to a three-year extension."To have Pav go home all summer and have the uncertainty and all the rumors that goes along with Pav being back in Russia and going into the last year of his contract isn't the way we want to do business," Holland said in a phone interview Tuesday....

Datsyuk said during the Wings' end-of-season locker cleanout that he wanted to return to Detroit and added he would still like to end his career in Russia."I would love to finish (in Russia), give back to my friends and fans in Russia," Datsyuk said.In the Wings' playoff series with Chicago, Greenstin shot down a report in Sovetsky Sport that his client had reached a tentative three-year agreement with AK Bars Kazan of the KHL after his contract expires next season with the Wings."It's BS rumors," Greenstin said at the time. "He can't talk to anybody. He's under contract with the Detroit Red Wings. Nobody is talking to any Russian team. There are rules and he's under contract."

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20130618/red-wings-sign-pavel-datsyuk-to-three-year-extension

Rewind to three years ago... If Kenny didn't know Datsyuk was itching to go home, he wasn't listening. He wanted to hear what the agent was saying, not what Datsyuk was saying. Kenny simply buried his head in the sand on this one.

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Even if they had the cap room, I don't think it would be the difference between seriously contending for the Cup or not, so I would just eat the cap hit this year and move on rather than trading a prospect to move the contract.

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Like with Babcock last year I really don't buy the public statements in this.  I think things go down and are said that we don't know about.  There is what happened and then there's the "official story".

It is what it is.  

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9 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Um, negotiate? That's his job, right? The agent set the frame, took the upper hand, and Holland got stuck in a corner.

The real issue though is that it seems that Datsyuk and his agent both knew he was eyeing a return to Russia, but Kenny didn't. Seriously? It shouldn't be a big surprise that an aging player who has family in another country would be torn between staying with a (mediocre) NHL team and going to raise his daughter. He is not the first NHL player to go back to Russia. I don't get the sense that Kenny ever seriously explored that possibility.

So you expected Ken Holland to go to the podium and say, I've decided not to sign Pavel Datsyuk because I have this hunch he really wants to go back to Russia.  Meanwhile his agent releases a statement saying poor Pavel wanted to end his career as a Red Wing and wanted a 5 year deal at a reasonable price, but Kenny seemed to know better.  I'm sure the Red Wings faithful would be lauding Mr. Holland for his foresight in knowing what Pavel wanted, even though he himself, did not. 

So you REALLY think Holland had NO clue and did absolutely no negotiating?  If he hadn't negotiated, we'd be stuck for 5 years.  It sounds to me like Pavel did not know exactly what he wanted, didn't completely understand the process and had an agent who was out for his own best interest, not Datsyuk's.  I think it has much more to do with Datsyuk wanting to play hockey in Russia while his body is still somewhat capable than it is about his daughter. 

If you read the article, Holland said he knew that Pavel leaving before the end of his contract was a possibility and that it was a risk.  Again, not sure what more you would have liked him to do. 

Datsyuk has changed his story so many times that I have a hard time believing anything he says and I'm much more skeptical of him than I am of Holland.

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Some people - and I'm not necessarily saying Jason here - would blame Holland regardless. Holland did negotiate - from 5 years down to 3. Imagine the outcry if Holland had held firm at 1 year and that wasn't good enough so he "let Datsyuk leave for nothing in return!". If Datsyuk and his agent were asking for a 5 year agreement and accepted 3, which was front-loaded $-wise by the way, you shouldn't have expected the player to come back just weeks into the deal and say he is jumping after that year. If anything, Holland is being too nice in letting Datsyuk play in Russia next year. If it was about his family or his ankle, he wouldn't be spending this summer in the States and he'd be playing for his hometown team in Russia or sitting out the year. But I understand why Holland is being "too nice", because I think the way the DRW organization treats players is part of their brand when it comes to attracting other players.

The other thing I chuckle about is how people say no wonder Datsyuk wants out, the Wings haven't been good enough the past few years. And 3 years ago, there was an outcry every year for Holland to do something to give Zetterberg or Datsyuk one more run at the cup. Yet then people complain about giving up a couple of middling prospects last year to get Zidlicky and Cole when the Wings were sitting 5th overall in the NHL standings at the trade deadline.

As for the cap hit, yeah, pretty much Stamkos or bust. In the unlikely event the Wings can sign Stamkos then of course it's worth getting rid of Jurco/Pulkinnen and a 2nd or 3rd to do so. Signing Stamkos would be as big as picking #1 overall in the draft. If you could sign Yandle, then also would be worth clearing cap space. Other than that, nah, eat the cap, it's only one season, let the year play out.

 

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Bob McKenzie seems to think the Wings are very likely to trade the contract, I hope they don't give up too much for space for a year.  In an ideal world they would hold on the trade until they had some sort of in principle deal with say...Stamkos before they did a contract dump.  That would make giving up a prospect+pick or whatever it would be worth it, but dumping a second round pick plus a young cheap guy would be dumb if they are just going to sign middle of the road players.

 

edit; whoops I should read the thread before I post, I pretty much just parroted LS' last paragraph

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1 minute ago, drownwithyou said:

Bob McKenzie seems to think the Wings are very likely to trade the contract, I hope they don't give up too much for space for a year.  In an ideal world they would hold on the trade until they had some sort of in principle deal with say...Stamkos before they did a contract dump.  That would make giving up a prospect+pick or whatever it would be worth it, but dumping a second round pick plus a young cheap guy would be dumb if they are just going to sign middle of the road players.

Yes, I don't give much weight to Holland's comments the other day that he is unlikely to trade it. Of course he is not going to come out and announce to the other teams that "Oh my god, I am desperate to trade the cap space otherwise this team is f'ed and Mr. I is going to yell at me".

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I hate this kind of zero sum maneuver. So you save the cap and then need to spend more cap to get back a player to replace the one you had to give away to get the cap space. So you look better on paper but you are probably also replacing a young player with an old one. Oh Boy.

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7 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I hate this kind of zero sum maneuver. So you save the cap and then need to spend more cap to get back a player to replace the one you had to give away to get the cap space. So you look better on paper but you are probably also replacing a young player with an old one. Oh Boy.

If it were left up to me I would save the cap space for the future and not make much of a push via free agency. There is no need, with this team on the decline, to run out and blow through all the cap space. Clear up what you can, if you can, by making smart moves to get rid of bad contracts and allow more of the younger guys (Pulk, Mantha, Athanasiou, Marchenko, Ouellet specifically) to have full time roles with the team next year. This is Ken Holland though and this is an organization concerned with the preservation of a marketing gimmick. Holland may indeed move Datsyuk's contract, with a prospect attached to the deal, and then go out and blow it all on a player/s not name Steven Stamkos. I think you are going to be disappointed with Holland's off-season plan when a couple of over 29 year old veterans come in and eat through any cap space we have left.

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There are others on this board who want Holland fired. I don't. But if you look three years ago, and don't blindly defend the guy - and aren't consumed by bitterness for Datsyuk - you'll see that the clear message from Datsyuk was ambivalence. His agent didn't represent him well, Datsyuk took the easy way out (accepting a long contract he wasn't confident he would finish), and Kenny buried his head in the sand in hopes that he could ride his core into one more run.

Datsyuk is not without blame, but there's not a single one of us who wouldn't have accepted that contract. It's on Holland to be smarter about giving away Mr. I's money.

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Soooo apparently the teams the Wings are talking to about Datsyuk are asking for returns centered around Svechnikov and Athanasiou... no thank you.

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21 minutes ago, drownwithyou said:

Soooo apparently the teams the Wings are talking to about Datsyuk are asking for returns centered around Svechnikov and Athanasiou... no thank you.

That's what it will take to move Datsyuk's contract, which is why we should eat it and spend next season seeing what the young guys can do.  Hopefully this playoff streak isn't something Holland and Ilitch are attached to....at this point the moves that need to be made to extend it might cause more long-term damage than good.

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6 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

That's what it will take to move Datsyuk's contract, which is why we should eat it and spend next season seeing what the young guys can do.  Hopefully this playoff streak isn't something Holland and Ilitch are attached to....at this point the moves that need to be made to extend it might cause more long-term damage than good.

Sadly my guess is that Illitch wants the streak going leading into the new arena.  Though my hope is that they think the new arena will sell tickets in two seasons even without the streak and make the smart move to just stand pat and play the kids.

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1 hour ago, drownwithyou said:

Soooo apparently the teams the Wings are talking to about Datsyuk are asking for returns centered around Svechnikov and Athanasiou... no thank you.

That's all posturing, IMO. Yes, if Holland does a deal like that then for sure sign me up for having Holland fired, lol.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Jason_R said:

There are others on this board who want Holland fired. I don't. But if you look three years ago, and don't blindly defend the guy - and aren't consumed by bitterness for Datsyuk - you'll see that the clear message from Datsyuk was ambivalence. His agent didn't represent him well, Datsyuk took the easy way out (accepting a long contract he wasn't confident he would finish), and Kenny buried his head in the sand in hopes that he could ride his core into one more run.

Datsyuk is not without blame, but there's not a single one of us who wouldn't have accepted that contract. It's on Holland to be smarter about giving away Mr. I's money.

Yeah, I see it as a mixed bag, no one comes out of this looking good. Holland seems to have had 4 choices 2 years ago:

a) - let Datsyuk walk for nothing, pack his bags for him to go home to Russia 2 years ago

b) - persuade Datsyuk to sign year by years

c) - sign Datsyuk to 5 years

d) - sign Datsyuk to 3 years and let the chips fall where they may

Strike c) because that would be worse than how it ended up.

Choice a) would have been risky - practically and optics - when Datsyuk was still a good player.

Choice b) would have been difficult but, given how Holland was frontloading the $ amounts, if he had stared down Datsyuk and his agent harder maybe Holland would have prevailed or got it down to 2 years

Choice e) isn't THAT bad in this context. The Wings got 2 years of Datsyuk, no money of Mr. I's money is being given away in year 3, and the 1 year of cap hit is a nuisance but not insurmountable. So even if you had known for sure that the scenario of Datsyuk leaving after 2 years was going to play out, d) still may have been the least bad option. You take chances when you're dealing with franchise players.

Where Holland can be faulted on something Datsyuk-related is his recent commitment to Abdelkader. Abdelkader was needed by Datsyuk. And a player like Abdelkader - but doesn't have to be Abdelkader himself - is needed by the Wings. But if you knew Datsyuk was leaving after this year, you could have sold Abdelkader high at the trade deadline - even if just say for a 2nd or 3rd round pick - and signed a replacement to a 3-year contract for similar or slightly money this offseason. I don't think guys like Abdelkader are irreplaceable. You don't take chance when you're dealing with non-franchise players.

That's why I'd go hard for Stamkos. He's a franchise player.

That's why I'm a bit surprised by the Leafs' move for Anderson yesterday. Both what they gave up and the contract to which they signed him. I guess they have the picks and cap space to afford to do so, given their moves of the past year, but is Anderson much better than Bernier? Ironically, I think Lou just gave Anderson a contract similar to what Holland gave Howard 3 years ago when Howard was the same age as Anderson now and Howard was a much more proven entity.

 

 

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Yeah, I see it as a mixed bag, no one comes out of this looking good.

I think the real villain here is the agent. He seems to have known of Datsyuk's interest in playing in Russia, and seems to have done all he could to downplay it, knowing that the Wings were plausibly candidates for a five-year contract - and knowing that he himself would make nothing if Datsyuk signed in Russia.

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51 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

I think the real villain here is the agent. He seems to have known of Datsyuk's interest in playing in Russia, and seems to have done all he could to downplay it, knowing that the Wings were plausibly candidates for a five-year contract - and knowing that he himself would make nothing if Datsyuk signed in Russia.

What do you mean the villain, that's what the agent is supposed to do.  Agent doesn't care about the team.   Can't make him a villain.  Datsyuk is the villiain and has been since the Olympics stunt he pulled in 2014.   Can't believe people refuse to call him out on that, the same ones that tore Fedorov up for taking a night off once in a while (but never ever in the playoffs).   Holland is a dolt.   To me it is becoming obvious that he surrounded himself with really good people and got the credit.   Now that Jimmy D and Jim Nill are gone, he's exposed.  The Wings way of doing things in the 90s is not unique anymore.  Everyone scouts Europe now and there are no more diamonds after the 5th round.  There needed to be innovation - bold moves.   All I see are the same used up signings.   Who will be this year's Mike Modano?  Who will be this year's Zidlicky?   Can't just blame the Cap anymore.  It's been in place for about 10 years now, figure out how to work around it.  

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