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Calvin Johnson Retires.

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I wouldn't completely disagree, but the keys here are "on pace" and "some numbers." I'm asking right now... if Stafford suffered a career ending injury, is he even in the HOF debate? The reason I'm asking is that I would expect a guy who is 10x better than an existing HOF QB should at least be in the HOF debate right now.

Stafford hasn't played long enough to have a hall of fame career. If you compare Peyton Manning through age 27 and Stafford, they are remarkably similar. Payton played 96 games Stafford's 93. Stafford has more passing yards, only 4 fewer TD, and 11 fewer interceptions. Manning had an 88.1 QB rating and Stafford 85.8. Peyton wasn't much more accurate either. 62.9% vs 60.9. I haven't looked this up, but I wonder how many quarterbacks are in the half of fame with less than 100 games played. If Stafford continues his pace, I think he should get consideration. A lot will depend if the team wins.

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Branns is now going to have to find someone to try to convince people that their crappy food actually tastes good.

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Branns is now going to have to find someone to try to convince someone that their crappy food actually tastes good.

You have insulted me! Brann's BBQ ribs best BBQ ribs!

Although now that I think about it that's pretty much all I eat there. They usually have a nice variety of beer on tap tho. And the wings are cheap enough that they'll go down with a couple beers.

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Branns is now going to have to find someone to try to convince people that their crappy food actually tastes good.

Make sure to pause slightly after every ALL CAPS word when reading...

This is Red and here's my HUGE opinion on Brann's. Brann's good is certain good food. It even has the potential to be GREAT good IF the the chefs can bring it to the next level. BUT, I could also see them DROPPING down to mere average or LOWER, if the CHEFS don't make the grade. So in the end Tommy Brann has the POTENTIAL to be really good or really bad. And THAT, is my going out on a limb, HUGE opinion.

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Stafford hasn't played long enough to have a hall of fame career.

Agreed... but let's look at Peyton. Peyton almost certainly is a HOF QB. But when he was age 27, would you have called him 10 times better than HOF QBs from yesteryear?

Look, I don't want to belabor the point here. I'm NOT saying Stafford sucks. Far from it. He's clearly the best QB in the last 4 or 5 decades for the Lions at least.

But, at least in my opinion it's very debateable whether Stafford is a better QB than Layne, understanding that the eras are very different. So to say that Stafford is 10x better, right now, than Layne was during his era it's a gross exaggeration in my opinion.

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Well ****.

I was hoping for the best but expecting the worst. This is the worst.

Calvin deserves nothing but respect. He doesn't have anything left to prove on the field. His HOF ticket is assured.

He leaves the game on his own two feet and positioned to live a long and happy life with his family and to do charity work. So long.

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I don't see this as the worst. Give our new GM the cap space. Not just the 11 mil this year, but the dead money coming off next year.

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I don't see this as the worst. Give our new GM the cap space. Not just the 11 mil this year, but the dead money coming off next year.

Yeah, it's not the worst... honestly, I'm not sure there is a "best" either though. I suppose best case was that he stays with the Lions, takes a pay cut, and plays out of his mind, but even 1 of those three things happening wasn't terribly likely let alone all three.

Worst case in my opinion would be that he comes back, plays really poorly and/or is injured a lot and doesn't even some close to living up to the 24 million cap number.

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Well ****.

I was hoping for the best but expecting the worst. This is the worst.......

For me, it depends on who they get to replace him. I think all fans could see that Johnson was slowing down due to age, injuries, etc. In reality, he was being overpaid for his position, production, etc.

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CJ holding them hostage at this point. Maybe it's a power play on his end to see if they will release him.

Before anyone says they have no right to "rush him" let me say that is ridiculous. He has had 3 full months. This is just crazy stupid what he is doing.

Before anyone else says anything about this post, let me say that is ridiculous.

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For me, it depends on who they get to replace him. I think all fans could see that Johnson was slowing down due to age, injuries, etc. In reality, he was being overpaid for his position, production, etc.

Yes, he is getting paid a lot. Yes, they will get some (not all) of his salary cleared from the books. But although he is no longer the unquestioned #1, there are still less than ten guys who can put up the numbers he did last year.

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Some of the WR's that would interest me would be:

Mike Wallace

Travis Benjamin

Marvin Jones

Rishard Matthews

In that order, and maybe a late round flier in the draft. I wouldn't want to waste much draft capital on a down year for the position. They can always draft a top receiver in the next couple of drafts.

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Yes, he is getting paid a lot. Yes, they will get some (not all) of his salary cleared from the books. But although he is no longer the unquestioned #1, there are still less than ten guys who can put up the numbers he did last year.

I agree and as a Lions fan, I love CJ. It's his life and he can do what he wants. As a person and player you couldn't ask for more. He is a class act and great player.

I hope the Lions can find a great replacement and Tate, Ebron, etc. can step up big time.

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Well ****.

I was hoping for the best but expecting the worst. This is the worst.

Calvin deserves nothing but respect. He doesn't have anything left to prove on the field. His HOF ticket is assured.

He leaves the game on his own two feet and positioned to live a long and happy life with his family and to do charity work. So long.

I feel the same way. Bummed out he won't be playing but glad he has most of his health. He's taken some crunches he'll probably be feeling forever.

But he retired with class...warning the fans months in advance. I believe all the news that leaked out was on purpose. The Lions finally asked publically when a decision was being made and within a couple of days, he made it official.

As for the HOF? Maybe eventually.

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Based on numbers, Stafford is close to being on a hall of fame pace. He is putting up some numbers that no other QB has put up at his age. The NFL rates quarterbacks a lot on how many SuperBowls you won.

Stafford? Hof?

Crazy talk. The guy just lost the receiver that carried him his entire career. Check out Stafford's games when Calvin didn't play, I bet they are horrid.

Stafford may not even be in the new Lions managements plans. We may find a QB who is more accurate?

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Stafford? Hof?

Crazy talk. The guy just lost the receiver that carried him his entire career. Check out Stafford's games when Calvin didn't play, I bet they are horrid.

Stafford may not even be in the new Lions managements plans. We may find a QB who is more accurate?

Stafford was 5th in the NFL in completion percentage last year. If they can get a more accurate QB than that, that would be great.

In 2014, Calvin missed 3 games and Stafford threw for 809 Yards, 5 TD, 3 INT, 58.3% completion percentage and an 82.3 rating. A little less than his career norms but not horrid and all 3 games were wins.

In 2013 Calvin missed 2 games and Stafford threw for 479 Yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 64.3% completion percentage and 92.5 rating. Pretty good numbers.

Stafford has been just as good without Calvin as he has been with him. Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady both struggled when their top receivers went down.

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It's nuts talking about Stafford has a HoF QB at this point, but he did show tremendous improvement in the 2nd half last year. IF he keeps up that pace, he will at least be a top-10 QB for a while.

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Branns is now going to have to find someone to try to convince people that their crappy food actually tastes good.

I am pretty choosy about my steaks, and they actually make a pretty decent 9 oz steak IMO....at least if we're talking under $30.

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It's nuts talking about Stafford has a HoF QB at this point, but he did show tremendous improvement in the 2nd half last year. IF he keeps up that pace, he will at least be a top-10 QB for a while.

Pick any recent QB who went to the Hall of Fame or is a sure hall of famer through age 27 and Stafford's numbers are right there with any of them. He is most similar to Peyton Manning through age 27.

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Pick any recent QB who went to the Hall of Fame or is a sure hall of famer through age 27 and Stafford's numbers are right there with any of them. He is most similar to Peyton Manning through age 27.

Just a point of clarification here... We're not talking about if Stafford will eventually be a HOF QB or if he's on pace to be a HOF QB. Rather, we're talking right here, right now: Is Stafford, in March of 2016, a HOF QB.

The discussion revolves around a statement made earlier in this thread that Stafford is 10x better than any other Lions QB in history.

In my opinion it's very arguable whether Stafford right now is better than Bobby Layne. Understanding that comparing across different era of the game is nearly impossible, I would contend that Layne still has the edge over Stafford in terms of what he accomplished. Looking a Pro-Bowls, times he lead the league in passing and/or TDs, and Championships.

No, none of those is a conclusive "smoking gun" that says Layne > Stafford. But those are things that exist outside of era because you are comparing the QB against other their peers rather than against changes in the game. In those areas Layne is still better than Stafford is right now.

But again, the comparison that was brought up earlier was not just that Stafford was better than Layne, but 10x better. So I stated: If a player right now is 10 times better than another player who already is in the HOF, should not that player be HOF worthy even if he quit today?

If Stafford retires right now... would he end up in the HOF?

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Just a point of clarification here... We're not talking about if Stafford will eventually be a HOF QB or if he's on pace to be a HOF QB. Rather, we're talking right here, right now: Is Stafford, in March of 2016, a HOF QB.

The discussion revolves around a statement made earlier in this thread that Stafford is 10x better than any other Lions QB in history.

In my opinion it's very arguable whether Stafford right now is better than Bobby Layne. Understanding that comparing across different era of the game is nearly impossible, I would contend that Layne still has the edge over Stafford in terms of what he accomplished. Looking a Pro-Bowls, times he lead the league in passing and/or TDs, and Championships.

No, none of those is a conclusive "smoking gun" that says Layne > Stafford. But those are things that exist outside of era because you are comparing the QB against other their peers rather than against changes in the game. In those areas Layne is still better than Stafford is right now.

But again, the comparison that was brought up earlier was not just that Stafford was better than Layne, but 10x better. So I stated: If a player right now is 10 times better than another player who already is in the HOF, should not that player be HOF worthy even if he quit today?

If Stafford retires right now... would he end up in the HOF?

I want to make it clear I was not the one that said he was 10 times better. The question of is he a hall of famer now is not a fair question. No QB in the Super Bowl era has made the hall of fame playing in less than 100 games. I have compared against his peers who are hall of fame players and he rates favorably.

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Just a point of clarification here... We're not talking about if Stafford will eventually be a HOF QB or if he's on pace to be a HOF QB. Rather, we're talking right here, right now: Is Stafford, in March of 2016, a HOF QB.

The discussion revolves around a statement made earlier in this thread that Stafford is 10x better than any other Lions QB in history.

In my opinion it's very arguable whether Stafford right now is better than Bobby Layne. Understanding that comparing across different era of the game is nearly impossible, I would contend that Layne still has the edge over Stafford in terms of what he accomplished. Looking a Pro-Bowls, times he lead the league in passing and/or TDs, and Championships.

No, none of those is a conclusive "smoking gun" that says Layne > Stafford. But those are things that exist outside of era because you are comparing the QB against other their peers rather than against changes in the game. In those areas Layne is still better than Stafford is right now.

But again, the comparison that was brought up earlier was not just that Stafford was better than Layne, but 10x better. So I stated: If a player right now is 10 times better than another player who already is in the HOF, should not that player be HOF worthy even if he quit today?

If Stafford retires right now... would he end up in the HOF?

If you want a simple answer to the exact question you asked, then no. A player who is 10x better (ignoring for a brief moment that the 10x better comment was a bit of obvious hyperbole and not a true qualitative comparison) than a hall of fame QB, that player would not necessarily be HOF worthy if he quit today.

For the sake of discussion, "better" in this context refers to skill level and demonstrated ability. HOF credentials are based on career achievements, which come as a result of performing with a high level of ability over a certain amount of time.

These is nothing wrong with concluding that stafford that stafford is a better QB than Bobby Layne while also saying he wouldn't make the HOF today.

But for the sake of argument, if HOF worthiness is to be the comparison, you would have to compare a current player and their accomplishments to other hall of famers at similar points in their career, and then attempt to project the current player going forward to a point where his resume would make him worthy of the HOF.

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The question of is he a hall of famer now is not a fair question. No QB in the Super Bowl era has made the hall of fame playing in less than 100 games. I have compared against his peers who are hall of fame players and he rates favorably.

Grab a HOF QB from the 50s. Now imagine a guy who is 10x better than him who has played in 93 games. Would that guy be HOF worthy after 93 games?

We're talking about a guy who is 10 times BETTER than other HOF QBs.

Sanders had a relatively short career, still more than Stafford has had right now, but shorter than most super star players. He still was a no-doubt HOF RB. Why? Because he was so much better than everyone else, even other RBs who were in the HOF who had longer careers than him.

And I wouldn't even say that Sanders was 10 times better than the next greatest Lions running back.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here a bit so I'll trying not to go too far off the crazy end. I just think it's beyond silly to say that Stafford is 10 times better than any other Lions QB at this point. He certainly ranks in the top 2 or 3 QBs in Lions history and you might be able to argue he is #1 over all, but 10 times better than #2 is way too far out there in my opinion.

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