Jump to content

RedRamage

Putting Tram and Lou in the Hall together?

Recommended Posts


On 11/15/2017 at 10:58 AM, Buddha said:

trammell has a 25% chance

morris has a 75% chance

whitaker has a 5% chance.  

i may be a little optimistic on whitaker.

well i'll be.

feel happy for trammell, feel meh about morris because i think its a joke that he made it.

catfish hunter has company now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we go ahead and order the statues? I would assume that if a HOFer spent most of his career in Detroit, they would have a statue a CoPa. Just save the spot next to Trammel for Lou. I REALLY hope he gets in too. That would make my childhood dream complete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The statues could simply be a logistical problem in terms of commissioning it. I assume those take time and the people doing it may be busy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, what do you think this means for Lou?  Will Trammel and Morris getting in help him as he had similar numbers as Tram and of course played with him for so long?

Or still it hurt because now that at least some from the great '84 team has been honored, there may not be as much attention for that team?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

So, what do you think this means for Lou?  Will Trammel and Morris getting in help him as he had similar numbers as Tram and of course played with him for so long?

Or still it hurt because now that at least some from the great '84 team has been honored, there may not be as much attention for that team?

I am pretty sure this helps Whitaker...if they ever put him on the ballot.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it helps him tremendously. 

I don't see why this "era" committee will be a thing for very long because you have a finite group of players to consider.  I maintain that the reason Lou was left off was they didn't want it too Tiger heavy.  They had to consider Morris and Trammell due to their status on the regular ballot.  Now that they've been voted in and you knocked off some of the lower echelon candidates then they'll include Lou.

Of course the 16 voters could be completely different from this year's voters.  But I think this is Whitaker's best shot and some strong support going forward will help.  

In a way I am glad they didn't go in together as each deserves their own time in the spotlight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone explain if they have some hidden reason why Lou isn't getting any traction?   Is there some horrible thing he was rumored to have done? 

Is it a matter of being aloof? 

How aloof do you have to be to be completely shut out?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it was just circumstancial.  He debuted on a crowded year and was put off the ballot because of the 5% rule.  I bet if the voters all knew that it would happen more would have picked him just to keep him on.  They don't think "Well I better vote for this guy so he stays on, they just assume enough others will".  As individuals they figured they would address his candidacy in the future without thinking that would be it.  I don't think it was a trend or a specific reason.  A fluke due to a dumb rule.  And I explained above why he wasn't on the latest ballot.  In reality it's just two ballots he was on.  The initial one and this last one.  There was no other mechanism to elect him otherwise.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I think it was just circumstancial.  He debuted on a crowded year and was put off the ballot because of the 5% rule.  I bet if the voters all knew that it would happen more would have picked him just to keep him on.  They don't think "Well I better vote for this guy so he stays on, they just assume enough others will".  As individuals they figured they would address his candidacy in the future without thinking that would be it.  I don't think it was a trend or a specific reason.  A fluke due to a dumb rule.  And I explained above why he wasn't on the latest ballot.  In reality it's just two ballots he was on.  The initial one and this last one.  There was no other mechanism to elect him otherwise.

 

I agree with this.  I think there is perception that there are certain levels of HOF worthy... first ballot, and then others.  You only vote for the really good ones the first time they are on the ballot.  Others you can vote for later...

My simple solution is that no one should be removed from the ballot after one year.  Yes, this does mean that there will be many people who are not even close to being hall worthy who stay on for a second year, but it also means that legitimate candidates (note: Legit candidates... not saying a definite HOF player, just one worthy of at least discussion) like Lou won't "fall off" because they came on during a crowded year or that they aren't good enough to be "first ballot" guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think Whitaker was one of those guys that didn't jump out at you paired with the fact that when he came up for election, offense was at a historic high.  So hitting .285 with 20 HR power didn't seem like a big deal from a 2B.  Sabermetrics really hadn't made much, if any inroads with the BBWAA at the time, so he got little to no help from any SABR sympathetic voters. He wasn't notably famous either.  It is quite possible Frank White, Willie Randolph and Bobby Grich were better known by casual fans / casual BBWAA voters (and yes, there are, or at least were, some casual *** BBWAA voters).

In any event, Lou was always going to have a tough row to hoe as he didn't have an MVP type season or set any career records / milestones normally associated with induction into the hall, but my belief is had he come up either 5-10 years sooner or later than he actually did, he would have stayed on the ballot (i.e. he had he come up 1990-95, his numbers would have looked better to enough voters, had he come up 2005-2010, enough SABR friendly voters would have voted for him to keep him on the ballot).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

whitaker was a compiler.  he was good for a long time but never great.  never reached the heights of say, sandberg. he was never an mvp candidate like trammell in 87.   but he hit at a reasonably high level for a long time.

trammell getting in will help him for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most Detroit thing to do would be to seek the conflict with the national media over the snub.  Still that's what I'm left with. 

I was a big fan of Lou's as a player.  I recall one game late in his career where he hit a game winner off the RF/CF stands above my head. 

Lets put his statue up as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

Can anyone explain if they have some hidden reason why Lou isn't getting any traction?   Is there some horrible thing he was rumored to have done? 

Is it a matter of being aloof? 

How aloof do you have to be to be completely shut out?  

There were always 2 negative narratives about Lou....don't know about the 1st but you never hear the 2nd any more after people realized it was not a good look.

1)  Was not especially warm/cooperative with the press.  Home or away.      I think he was naturally shy but I've seen more than one reporter reference this.   Not that he was negative or nasty, just that he generally avoided them.

2) That he was as good as he was because of natural talent.  That he didn't really care, wasn't gritty.  The All Star snafu with his jersey was used as an example of him just floating along.   I thought that was very unfair since most Pro players don't worry about their unis.

 

I think he get in, he certainly deserves it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LooseGoose said:

 

2) That he was as good as he was because of natural talent.  That he didn't really care, wasn't gritty. 

If I had to guess it is mostly this. He didn't generate sufficient drama. Esp as a fielder, he was a throwback (as was Tram mostly) to an era when guys were taught to stay on their feet playing in an era of increasing athleticism being displayed on the field. I would so love to see how Tram and Lou would grade out in quantitative systems like those we have today. Conventional wisdom says the athletes diving all over the field generates more outs, but I'd still like to see the proof or at least see how much difference there actually is.

To me one of the most fun things about watching Lou's career was how his approach changed over the years as his strength/skill changed. Supposedly he didn't train, but his evolution from a guy who got most of his doubles down the left field line as a young player to one who wore out the right field line as a mature player was an education in how to match your bat to your what your body could do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Yeah, it was the not being gritty / caring enough thing.

Jack Morris often complained about Lou not caring enough, for example.

Gibby told a story too but it was a little self effacing and more about Sparky's leadership than his particular beef... like "Don't you worry about Lou, I'll handle him.  You worry about yourself".

It was said that Lou didn't work out much during the off season and used ST to get in shape.  To him it was just a job.  He showed up, did it, then went home.

He got flack during the strike for showing up to the player meetings in a limo.  That got national attention.  The thing was the limo was his ONLY vehicle.  They owned a recording studio and used it for clients.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×