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RedRamage

Putting Tram and Lou in the Hall together?

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Surprised that Lou didn’t make it. There was article this morning, probably from that hack Tony Paul, that quoted “sources” that said Lou was on the ballot. 

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One thing that gives me hope for Lou: the Today's Game ballot (1988 to present) will be voted on next year, and even though Lou didn't play most of his career there and the players won't look at WAR, it's possible that Lou makes the ballot because he had a pretty good post 1988 career (32 of his 75 WAR), including some of his best seasons.

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Is Morris going to make it?

That would be the most unfair outcome so it's very likely to happen.

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I'm not the biggest Brian Kenny fan in the World but he mic dropped this guy on Twitter. 

This guy said Tram wouldn't even be a top 10 SS today and Kenny pointed out that not one SS had a 6 win season this year while Tram had six different ones.   

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Morris will make it and Jack will regale us with how unfair the process is and how advanced metrics don't capture the essence of the game.

Or Morris won't make it and Jack will regale us with how unfair the process is and how advanced metrics don't capture the essence of the game.

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32 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

If Morris makes it, I want to hear what drunk Lou Whitaker says about it.  

 

He;s already very angry that Dozier got the Gold Glove.

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Lou not being on the ballot was a case of the committee not wanting it to have 3 Tigers on it.  And given Jack's high percentage they'd face too much heat for leaving him off.

If they do vote Trammell in then I expect Lou to be on the ballot in a few years when they get back to that era and he'll be voted in too  Maybe they look at it as a case of weeding out the people like Garvey.  It's not like the pool of candidates is going to increase.  

When does Leyland get on the BBWAA ballot?

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5 hours ago, Oblong said:

Lou not being on the ballot was a case of the committee not wanting it to have 3 Tigers on it.  And given Jack's high percentage they'd face too much heat for leaving him off.

If they do vote Trammell in then I expect Lou to be on the ballot in a few years when they get back to that era and he'll be voted in too  Maybe they look at it as a case of weeding out the people like Garvey.  It's not like the pool of candidates is going to increase.  

When does Leyland get on the BBWAA ballot?

If they don't put him on the ballot, that's horse ****   

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Whitaker and Tram I think will make it eventually.  They don't have the stat milestones that would make them "locks" but they are as good as most HoF position players overall by virtue of WAR, which is gaining credibility/visibility as a career stat.

Plus they have the advantage of having been a great combo on a really good team for a long time.  Eventually they will make it together.

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On 11/14/2017 at 7:19 AM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I am willing to bet neither make it.

trammell has a 25% chance

morris has a 75% chance

whitaker has a 5% chance.  

i may be a little optimistic on whitaker.

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Alan Trammell is on the “Modern Era” Hall of Fame ballot this year, which replaces the official Veteran’s Committee, but for all intents and purposes is the same thing.  Since 2000, this method of voting has enshrined just five players.  In the same period, the Hall has welcomed two umpires, seven executives, and seven managers, showing the stinginess of current HOF players toward expanding their ranks.  Let’s see how Tram stacks up against the five players put in this century.

Deacon White (2013)  MLB Career: 1871-1890

Yes, it’s a bit unfair to compare Tram and Deacon White, who played entirely in the 19th century, a time before gloves, four pitch walks, good record keeping, indoor plumbing, etc.  However, that’s what this exercise is all about.  Stats:

 

G

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

BB

SO

WAR

White

1560

.312

.346

.393

.740

1140

2067

270

98

24

988

70

308

221

45.3

Trammell

2293

.285

.352

.415

.767

1231

2365

412

55

185

1003

236

850

874

70.4

Common to many players of his era, White appeared all over the field, but his primary positions were at catcher and third base.  Looking at common stats, Tram is the superior player in all but batting average.  Yes, the walk and strikeout totals are markedly different, but it was a different era.  I’m pretty sure you walked once you got to like 9 balls, and if the umpire liked you, although sometimes you were your own umpire.  In all seriousness, Tram is a slam dunk compared to Deacon White.  What about defense, you ask?  White’s career fielding percentage was .873, as compared to Tram’s .976.

 

Ron Santo (2012)  MLB Career: 1960-1974

Here’s someone much closer to Tram’s own era.  Without further ado, the numbers.

 

G

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

BB

SO

WAR

Santo

2243

.277

.362

.464

.826

1138

2254

365

67

342

1331

35

1108

1343

70.4

Trammell

2293

.285

.352

.415

.767

1231

2365

412

55

185

1003

236

850

874

70.4

Pretty darn close.  Santo has more power and RBI, whereas Tram has more hits, more doubles, far more stolen bases, and far less strikeouts.  Career WAR is identical.  For defense, Tram again wins the fielding percentage battle, this time with .976 compared to Santo’s .954.  Santo has 5 Gold Gloves, Tram has 4. Santo leads in All-Star appearances, 9-6.  Tram has a World Series MVP.  Basically, if one is a Hall of Famer, the other has to be too.

 

Joe Gordon (2009)  MLB Career: 1938-1950

Gordon missed two full seasons of his career to service in World War II, which isn’t fair but does reduce his counting stats by a bit.  Numbers:

 

G

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

BB

SO

WAR

Gordon

1566

.268

.357

.466

.822

914

1530

264

52

253

975

89

759

702

57.1

Trammell

2293

.285

.352

.415

.767

1231

2365

412

55

185

1003

236

850

874

70.4

Tram leads in all categories except power.  Defensively, it’s almost identical, with Tram at .976 and Gordon at .970.  However, Tram has a big lead in WAR thanks to a higher peak and more longevity.  Both managed the Tigers to not much success.  Just like Santo, if one of them is HOF, so is the other.

 

Bill Mazeroski (2001)  MLB Career: 1956-1972

Here’s one where Trammell has a decent offensive lead.

 

G

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

BB

SO

WAR

Mazeroski

2163

.260

.299

.367

.667

769

2016

294

62

138

853

27

447

706

36.2

Trammell

2293

.285

.352

.415

.767

1231

2365

412

55

185

1003

236

850

874

70.4

But wait, you say!  Maz was elected for his defense!  Let’s see….lifetime fielding percentages?  Maz has .983, which does edge Trammell’s .976, but not by much.  Maz doubles up the Gold Gloves, 8-4.  He was also a 10 time All-Star, compared to Tram’s 6.  The real difference, though, comes in that beloved WAR stat.  Trammell is nearly double Maz, 70.4-36.2.  Maybe that bottom of the ninth home run helped Mazeroski…

 

Bid McPhee (2000)  MLB Career: 1882-1899

Another 19th century player.  Recycle other jokes here.  Numbers:

 

G

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

BB

SO

WAR

McPhee

2138

.272

.355

.373

.763

1684

2258

303

189

53

1072

568

982

377

52.4

Trammell

2293

.285

.352

.415

.767

1231

2365

412

55

185

1003

236

850

874

70.4

Closer than one might think, until it comes to that all important WAR.  If 52.4 gets in, 70.4 has to.  Just plain has to.


So there you have the only five players in 17 years to get in via this method.  Lots of others have failed, as evidenced by that 8 year gap between Mazeroski & Gordon.  The whole point to this?  If these five are worthy, Alan Trammell has to be also.  Sure, that argument could be made for other players on this and on past ballots, but this writing isn’t about those players, now is it?

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