Jump to content

RedRamage

Putting Tram and Lou in the Hall together?

Recommended Posts

They are easily the longest running 2B/SS combo whether one counts post '91 or not.

They played the third most games together (any position) among teammates in the history of the game (and hold the AL record for most games together as teammates, FWIW), and the overwhelming majority saw them as the keystone combination.  2078 of 2126 career games started for Trammell were at SS, 2142 of 2164 at 2B for Whitaker.

 

I'd wager they have at least twice as many innings together at the middle of the infield than any other duo in the history of the major leagues.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

They are easily the longest running 2B/SS combo whether one counts post '91 or not.

They played the third most games together (any position) among teammates in the history of the game (and hold the AL record for most games together as teammates, FWIW), and the overwhelming majority saw them as the keystone combination.  2078 of 2126 career games started for Trammell were at SS, 2142 of 2164 at 2B for Whitaker.

 

I'd wager they have at least twice as many innings together at the middle of the infield than any other duo in the history of the major leagues.

 

I believe that is true too.  Their run as a keystone combo is remarkable in baseball history.  You can debate how much that should count for the Hall of Fame, but they were easily the longest running duo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's why I said it bugs me "a little bit" because often they'll say it in a way that implies they were a combo the entire time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2017/10/24/tigers-trio-get-hof-vote-december/106961604/

Key points from article:

- the Hall of Fame will release its Modern Baseball ballot Nov 6

- names on ballot will include players whose greatest impact was between 1970-1987

- 10-person ballot

- Morris, Trammell and Whitaker are each eligible to be on the ballot; doesn't mean that they will be on the ballot

- 16-member voting committee

- Need 75%, 12 votes, to get in

- Results will be announced in early December

- Next Modern Ballot vote after this December's will be December 2019

-

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2017/10/24/tigers-trio-get-hof-vote-december/106961604/

Key points from article:

- the Hall of Fame will release its Modern Baseball ballot Nov 6

- names on ballot will include players whose greatest impact was between 1970-1987

- 10-person ballot

- Morris, Trammell and Whitaker are each eligible to be on the ballot; doesn't mean that they will be on the ballot

- 16-member voting committee

- Need 75%, 12 votes, to get in

- Results will be announced in early December

- Next Modern Ballot vote after this December's will be December 2019

-

 

Put them in as a duo.  This is how it always should have happened.  The 84 team needs to be represented and these guys deserve it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:36 AM, Oblong said:

that's why I said it bugs me "a little bit" because often they'll say it in a way that implies they were a combo the entire time.

I don't know, they likely had 2000 games started next to one another.  That is the equivalent of 12.5 seasons straight.

EDIT: Additionally, all career highlight lists gloss over things.  You will see 'played 18 seasons' when the guy in question got called up in September for 12 AB when he was 20, was a bench player season 2,  and the last two seasons of his career he only started 50 games total.  In other words, some fluffery on those type of career summaries is to be expected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't know, they likely had 2000 games started next to one another.  That is the equivalent of 12.5 seasons straight.

I think they had a historic run no matter how you frame it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think they had a historic run no matter how you frame it.  

Me too. But frame it correctly which was my peeve when discussing their history together.

They were a DP duo from 1978-1991.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That article is a little confusing as written, I had to read a few times.

November 6 the HOF releases the names on the ballot.  10 players will be presented to 16 members.  The 16 members vote and anyone getting 12 makes the HOF.  They announce the results in December.

Trammell is eligible to be on the ballot.  (The reason Paul included that is because on Twitter he mentioned it wasn't clear if he was eligible since his HOF run ended so recently)

I don't care about Morris making it.  If I had to pick in order I'd go with Lou, Tram.... then Morris a distant third.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say there are better than 80% odds that both Trammell and Whitaker are on this ballot, and if they are on the ballot, I say there are better than 99% odds they both go in next summer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I say there are better than 80% odds that both Trammell and Whitaker are on this ballot, and if they are on the ballot, I say there are better than 99% odds they both go in next summer.

Really?  Wow.

I might have to make summer plans to go to COoperstown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking that same thing. Even if they are not inducted, I've never been to a Hall of Fame induction ceremony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I say there are better than 80% odds that both Trammell and Whitaker are on this ballot, and if they are on the ballot, I say there are better than 99% odds they both go in next summer.

Tony Paul said in a tweet that they are on the ballot (yeah I know it's Tony Paul).  Is the 99% a hunch or do you have some inside info from SABR folks?  I was thinking it was a long shot that Whitaker would make it since he was ignored the first time.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Me too. But frame it correctly which was my peeve when discussing their history together.

They were a DP duo from 1978-1991.

 

It depends on who the audience is.  They still played as a duo in a good number of games for several years after that.  If you want to be technical, you could say they were a duo for 14 years and parts of 5 seasons after that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Tony Paul said in a tweet that they are on the ballot (yeah I know it's Tony Paul).  Is the 99% a hunch or do you have some inside info from SABR folks?  I was thinking it was a long shot that Whitaker would make it since he was ignored the first time.  

I don't think his absence the first time matters as much seeing as it's just 16 people now.  Do we know the 16 people?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at this YT video of some Whitaker WS and All-Star game appearances, I found this gem at the 3:50 mark - Hank Greenberg being introduced as honorary captain for the 1984 All-Star Game. Greenberg was 73 years old then and would die 2 years later. He had retired 37 years earlier in 1947. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/191243706/hall-of-fame-board-adjusts-veterans-committee/

Chas, does this change your thinking?

 

Ten people are placed on the ballot by a separate nominating committee, and each of the 16-member voting block can vote for a maximum of five. That means there are only 80 votes to divvy around, and the more stocked the ballot is with good candidates, the less chance there is of anyone being elected./quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Tony Paul said in a tweet that they are on the ballot (yeah I know it's Tony Paul).  Is the 99% a hunch or do you have some inside info from SABR folks?  I was thinking it was a long shot that Whitaker would make it since he was ignored the first time.  

I don't have any inside dope on it. I say this because Trammell is one of those guys who's not in the Hall who most people say should be, and his career is as tethered to Lou Whitaker as Joe Tinker's was to Johnny Evers or Frank Chance. I don't see how they don't go in together, particularly since Whitaker had the better sabermetric career, . In fact, Lou Whitaker has the highest WAR of any Hall-eligible player not tainted by steroids or gambling to not be in the Hall. If they let in Trammell while leaving out Whitaker, they'll have some uncomfortable explaining to do.

I also think they would have a heck of a time explaining how Trammell and Whitaker don't make it if they induct guys like Bobby Grich, Craig Nettles or Buddy Bell instead. They should probably all go in, along with the Evans "brothers" Darrell and Dewey, but if you had to choose two out of the seven, I don't see how even a grizzled old veteran doesn't go with Trammell and Whitaker first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Oblong said:

It might, depending on who the ten candidates are. I guess it would also depend on whether the 16 voters can consider players' performance only during the period 1970-1987, which I believe would be a dumb restriction. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't have any inside dope on it. I say this because Trammell is one of those guys who's not in the Hall who most people say should be, and his career is as tethered to Lou Whitaker as Joe Tinker's was to Johnny Evers or Frank Chance. I don't see how they don't go in together, particularly since Whitaker had the better sabermetric career, . In fact, Lou Whitaker has the highest WAR of any Hall-eligible player not tainted by steroids or gambling to not be in the Hall. If they let in Trammell while leaving out Whitaker, they'll have some uncomfortable explaining to do.

I also think they would have a heck of a time explaining how Trammell and Whitaker don't make it if they induct guys like Bobby Grich, Craig Nettles or Buddy Bell instead. They should probably all go in, along with the Evans "brothers" Darrell and Dewey, but if you had to choose two out of the seven, I don't see how even a grizzled old veteran doesn't go with Trammell and Whitaker first.

There was fuss over not putting anyone in for 2 years, via the vets, so the question begs.... why have it if they're not going to vote anybody in?  This seems tailor made for guys like Trammell and Lou.  

But I wonder if we'll need a Veteran's Committee in 20 years?  They are righting some wrongs based on misinformation and I think that's changing now.  You'd think the BBWAA would become better as time goes on.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to take a hack at who I think the ten players on the ballot will be:

  • Alan Trammell
  • Lou Whitaker
  • Bobby Grich
  • Dwight Evans
  • Keith Hernandez
  • Rick Reuschel
  • Frank Tanana
  • Ron Guidry
  • Tommy John
  • Jack Morris

This is not who I think should be on the ballot, but rather who I think will be on it.

I'm guessing five position players and five pitchers, and I am guessing name value will count for something beyond just raw numbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I'm going to take a hack at who I think the ten players on the ballot will be:

  • Alan Trammell
  • Lou Whitaker
  • Bobby Grich
  • Dwight Evans
  • Keith Hernandez
  • Rick Reuschel
  • Frank Tanana
  • Ron Guidry
  • Tommy John
  • Jack Morris

This is not who I think should be on the ballot, but rather who I think will be on it.

I'm guessing five position players and five pitchers, and I am guessing name value will count for something beyond just raw numbers.

So really.... if you are Ryne Sandberg or Andy McPhail (I just made those up based on a list I saw of previous members of a veterans' committee)... you are tasked with looking at potential new HOFers and given this list... 

I am starting to agree with Chas.  I don't see how you can look at a list like that and not pick our guys.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Oblong said:

So really.... if you are Ryne Sandberg or Andy McPhail (I just made those up based on a list I saw of previous members of a veterans' committee)... you are tasked with looking at potential new HOFers and given this list... 

I am starting to agree with Chas.  I don't see how you can look at a list like that and not pick our guys.   

I kind of agree.  There are players on the list (Grich and Evans) who are comparable to Whitaker and Trammell, but nobody is significantly better.  Tommy John  is probably the best pitcher and we know they like Morris.  I think if there is a general sentiment that Whitaker/Trammell should be considered as a duo, they have a good chance.  If they are considered separately, then it could be anybody. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×