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RedRamage

Putting Tram and Lou in the Hall together?

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Now that Trammel is officially off the "regular" ballot, how long until he can be voted in by one of the other committees? I seem to remember reading somewhere a few years back that he needs to be off the regular ballot for x-number of years before he can be considered by the Veterans Committee. Is that true? And if so, how long until he's eligible for that? Might that committee wait to put Lou and Tram in the Hall together?

On a side note, I wonder if Trammell (and Lou for that matter) would have had a better shot of getting in on the regular ballot if they were both on it at the same time? I certainly think that with both of them together it would have made for a more impact-ful story which could have led to more people investigating the actual numbers and perhaps more votes.

And that of course leads to the discussion of the STUPID idea that there is a difference between a "First Ballot" HOFer and a "non-First Ballot" HOFer. The idea that some voters look at a player and think: "Yeah, he's good enough for the Hall, but he's not good enough for me to vote for him the first time he's on the ballot. Even though he's been retired for 5 years and won't be adding to his stats, I still need to wait a year before I consider him good enough for a vote."

I just don't get how that logic works in some voters heads. BUT, I understand it does exist and therefore I think the HOF voting needs to be amended slightly to take this phenomenon into account. Currently any player not getting 5% (I think) of the vote is dropped from any future consideration. I would amend the rules to say that anyone in their first year of eligibility needs only 1% of the vote to remain on the ballot. Obviously the year being their second year this number would revert to the 5% (or whatever the current number is), but given that many votes seem to automatically NOT vote for a marginal HOF player, I'd like the Hall to take this into consideration for determine who gets to stick around or be dropped.

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I think I agree. If being a first ballot HOF is important to the voters and the Hall, create a wing of the HOF that is just for first ballot HOFer's. If not, vote for them if you think they are worthy. (or do they already have that? I've never been)

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Lynn Henning said the first time that Lou and Tram would be eligible by one of the VC would be 2020 but then Morosi said it's actually December of this year.

I know that past VC have been a little stingy but it's a new process now. I could see them going in together. They need people within the game promoting them... guys like Leyland, LaRussa, Torre.

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Oblong, people originally thought that Trammell would be eligible later this year due to the rule change for veteran's committee ballots that Trammell can't be considered until the next vote for his era (2020). I can't find the explanation I saw (maybe it was Olney, I know it was on Twitter somewhere) but I think it had something to do with years since retirement to gain consideration.

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Lynn Henning said the first time that Lou and Tram would be eligible by one of the VC would be 2020 but then Morosi said it's actually December of this year.

I would believe Henning on Hall-of-Fame matters. He takes his vote very seriously and researches it as well as anyone.

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I would believe Henning on Hall-of-Fame matters. He takes his vote very seriously and researches it as well as anyone.

So seriously that he didn't bother to vote this year because he was pouting over only being able to vote for 10 players.

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Do Tram or Lou stand a shot realistically with the VC? They seem to be even stiffer than regular voters.

Historically the VC has let in far, far more questionable candidates than the voters.

That written, recently they seem to have tightened up the VC standards.

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So seriously that he didn't bother to vote this year because he was pouting over only being able to vote for 10 players.

That was kind of silly, but when he does vote, he seems to put more thought into it than a lot of other writers.

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That was kind of silly, but when he does vote, he seems to put more thought into it than a lot of other writers.

I don't think it was that silly. If he had 11 or more guys he wanted to vote for, I think it's acceptable to decline to mail in the ballot.

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I don't think it was that silly. If he had 11 or more guys he wanted to vote for, I think it's acceptable to decline to mail in the ballot.

Maybe one year, but two straight years after it became apparent there would be no change seems excessive.

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Do Tram or Lou stand a shot realistically with the VC? They seem to be even stiffer than regular voters.

I don't Lou's case is all that great. He had a great career, but second baseman just don't seem to get a lot of respect when it comes to getting in to the hall. His numbers overall are similar to tram but slightly better. I think the 2b/ss difference when it comes to perceived greatness comes into play.

Tram to me deserves to be in, but he's not a slam dunk. So I don't think Lou really measures up in my mind.

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Maybe one year, but two straight years after it became apparent there would be no change seems excessive.

Why should he change his stance if the situation doesn't change?

Maybe after this year enough guys are off the ballot that he won't need more than 10. Griffey, pizza, and tram are now gone.

I think as soon as his choices fall back to 10, he will submit a ballot again, but who knows.

If he's only doing it in protest and not because he feels he can't fill out the ballot he wants to, then I think it will become silly.

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I don't think it was that silly. If he had 11 or more guys he wanted to vote for, I think it's acceptable to decline to mail in the ballot.

I don't agree at all. That's part of how it is kept exclusive. Vote for your top 10. Its your responsibility as a voter

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I don't Lou's case is all that great. He had a great career, but second baseman just don't seem to get a lot of respect when it comes to getting in to the hall. His numbers overall are similar to tram but slightly better. I think the 2b/ss difference when it comes to perceived greatness comes into play.

Tram to me deserves to be in, but he's not a slam dunk. So I don't think Lou really measures up in my mind.

I know its not everything, but Lou has more WAR than Tram,Sandberg,Larkin and Biggio. Its tough for me to think he doesn't deserve in

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Alan Trammell has a higher JAWS score than Derek Jeter.

But JAWS doesn't account for the New York bias multiplier.

More seriously, I think there is a longevity component that JAWS misses. Since JAWS is only for 7 seasons, it could miss out on 8th through Xth seasons that Jeter may have been better than Trammell (I say may because I have not looked season by season; I know Jeter didn't have the injury issues that Trammell did).

Edited by Casimir

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I don't agree at all. That's part of how it is kept exclusive. Vote for your top 10. Its your responsibility as a voter

But if he submits a ballot and leaves off a guy that he feels is deserving of election, then he is inflating the vote of the players he includes and deflating the vote the vote of the player he excluded from a percentage standpoint.

By not including his ballot, he doesn't affect the percentages.

I think that's fine.

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But JAWS doesn't account for the New York bias multiplier.

More seriously, I think there is a longevity component that JAWS misses. Since JAWS is only for 7 seasons, it could miss out on 8th through Xth seasons that Jeter may have been better than Trammell (I say may because I have not looked season by season; I know Jeter didn't have the injury issues that Trammell did).

Jaws doesn't ignore the other seasons. It's an average of career war and peak war. So the peak years are weighted heavier, but not the only thing.

Jeter played the same number of seasons as tram, but had many more plate appearances. And also played in an era with bigger offense. He deserves some credit for his ability to stay healthy and put up the counting stats that he did, though.

Still, he's going to go in on the first ballot, and might even do better than Griffey did. Yet tram tops out at 40%.

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I know its not everything, but Lou has more WAR than Tram,Sandberg,Larkin and Biggio. Its tough for me to think he doesn't deserve in

Biggio benefits from the 3000 hits vs Lou's 2300.

If you get to 3000 hits you are probably getting in.

I don't think it's right that biggio got in on the second ballot and Lou was out immediately. It's unfair to Lou.

I'm not saying Lou isn't deserving. He could be. I just think he's a clear tier down from tram, given the position thing.

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I don't agree at all. That's part of how it is kept exclusive. Vote for your top 10. Its your responsibility as a voter

The practical consequence when you have a backlog is only no doubters get in because the vote gets split and nobody but the 300 game winner / 3 time MVP gets focused in on enough to get 75% of the vote. This has happened a few times in the past and the more quality guys on the ballot -> fewer guys getting in. Seems counter-intuitive, but history suggests it a factor.

If you legitimately have more than 10 candidates deserving of admission to the hall on any ballot (PED backlash have driven the latest backlog, IMO), then the voters have failed on some level, rather than done a job to keep it exclusive.

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But if he submits a ballot and leaves off a guy that he feels is deserving of election, then he is inflating the vote of the players he includes and deflating the vote the vote of the player he excluded from a percentage standpoint.

By not including his ballot, he doesn't affect the percentages.

I think that's fine.

I agree.

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Jaws doesn't ignore the other seasons. It's an average of career war and peak war. So the peak years are weighted heavier, but not the only thing.

Well, I'm an idiot. I had a misunderstanding about the career WAR being factored into it.

Still, he's going to go in on the first ballot, and might even do better than Griffey did. Yet tram tops out at 40%.

Yup. No argument here. I don't give much of a rip if Jeter gets in on the 1st ballot, or by how much he gets in. Its the ignorance of the careers of Trammell and Whitaker that is incredible.

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It isn't hard for me to see at all, WRT Tram and Lou.

Writers at the same time were more impressed by Morris than they were of Tram and Lou.

They were two guys who were very good at a lot of things, not truly elite at anything. Darrell Evans is much the same way. Joe Torre (as a player) as well.

Guys like that really didn't get into the hall unless they were on a lot of championship teams.

Not saying it is fair, just that it really wasn't that hard to predict. They were the last generation of players to play before Sabermetrics differently / better informed people how to evaluate player effectiveness.

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