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Shinma

1/3/16. Lions at Bears. Week 17. 1:05pm, FOX.

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I would prefer to bite the bullet, and pay him to play next year at his going rate. That would make it much better after that. The Lions have kicked the can too much.

Yeah, thinking on it a bit, for me the decision is really one of take the cap hit 2016 and keep him or release him.

Not a big fan of renegotiating his deal unless you think it is necessary to add the final piece or two for a SB run, which is not the position they are in.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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He had two games in the second half of the season against better defenses and he and the offense still struggled. In the Oakland game they only TD the offense got was from Stafford running it in. In the Rams game, the offense looked as lackluster as it had under Lombardi, during the first half of the season. They managed to get in the endzone twice, but once again Stafford took a pounding and wasn't as sharp as we've seen him during other games later in the season.

Even then, his qb rating in his bad games were at the upper end of what he was doing at the beginning of the season and 2014.

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So I am clear:

I think part of the 'improvement' is weaker competition but I think there is some actual improvement there. It isn't as if he put up impressive numbers routinely in the past when he played weaker defenses.

I'd expect virtually all qb tend to struggle some relative to their baseline against stronger defenses and do better against weaker defenses. Pointing out Stafford exhibited that trait in the 2nd half isn't surprising to me and really says little about whether he improved or not.

I'll ask again. How do we think other qb would have done against those weaker defenses?

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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So I am clear:

I think part of the 'improvement' is weaker competition but I think there is some actual improvement there. It wasn't as if he put up impressive numbers routinely in the past when he played weaker defenses.

I'd expect virtually all qb tend to struggle some relative to their baseline against stronger defenses and do better against weaker defenses. Pointing out Stafford exhibited that trait in the 2nd half isn't surprising to me and really says little about whether he improved or not.

I'll ask again. How do we think other qb would have done against those weaker defenses?

Apparently better than a 17 to 1 TD/INT ratio.

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Please explain. His current contract runs until 2019. Is there some way to void his current deal(I am assuming both sides would have to agree?) and then do a whole new contract? Or are you saying extend his current deal beyond 2019?

You are correct. For some reason I thought his contract ended in 2017. That is just when his dead money ends though.

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thats the dumbest thing I've ever read...

Why on earth would they trade stafford?????

Rework CJ Contact he will 100% nobody is going to pay a 30 year old WR 20+ mill.

Get Levy Back, Slay and Lawson have another year, draft some O Line first 2 rounds and Middle D line 3 and 4 to go along with ziggy and taylor and take a run at it next year.....

2016 is the Lions the lions win a playoff game. Can't wait to quote this in a year!

Yes, let's continue to pay exorbitant amounts of $ to two guys that have led this team nowhere the past seven years. Absolute brilliant plan, just sheer brilliance. No wonder this organization has done nothing the past 50 years.

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Yes, let's continue to pay exorbitant amounts of $ to two guys that have led this team nowhere the past seven years. Absolute brilliant plan, just sheer brilliance. No wonder this organization has done nothing the past 50 years.

The Lions should'of cut Barry Sanders in 1990 instead of paying him exorbitant amounts of $.

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So I am clear:

I think part of the 'improvement' is weaker competition but I think there is some actual improvement there. It isn't as if he put up impressive numbers routinely in the past when he played weaker defenses.

I'd expect virtually all qb tend to struggle some relative to their baseline against stronger defenses and do better against weaker defenses. Pointing out Stafford exhibited that trait in the 2nd half isn't surprising to me and really says little about whether he improved or not.

I'll ask again. How do we think other qb would have done against those weaker defenses?

Since guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, etc. routinely performed against top ranked defenses throughout their careers (which helps explain why their teams win) im guessing they'd do just fine. Didnt Jameis Winston drop 5 tds on that PHI D? Kirk Cousins dropped 324 and 4 against N.O and 365 and 4 against PHI.

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The Lions should'of cut Barry Sanders in 1990 instead of paying him exorbitant amounts of $.

Pretty sure the Lions won a playoff game with Barry, not to mention 5 playoff appearances in an 8 year span. Isnt Barry also considered the greatest RB that ever lived? Bad comparison.

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He's under contract with the Lions and can't sign with anyone else. If he doesn't want to renegotiate, you just take the cap hit. Anyway, the Lions can make it better for him financially by renegotiating.

I think you have to cut him if he doesn't take a cut

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He had two games in the second half of the season against better defenses and he and the offense still struggled. In the Oakland game they only TD the offense got was from Stafford running it in. In the Rams game, the offense looked as lackluster as it had under Lombardi, during the first half of the season. They managed to get in the endzone twice, but once again Stafford took a pounding and wasn't as sharp as we've seen him during other games later in the season.

GB was a top 10 scoring D and we played them twice. He threw 4 TDs and one pick.

He also didn't ever seem to look that good against bad defenses under Lombardi. I don't think he'd put the same numbers up against top defenses, but you'd see an improvement

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Pretty sure the Lions won a playoff game with Barry, not to mention 5 playoff appearances in an 8 year span. Isnt Barry also considered the greatest RB that ever lived? Bad comparison.

I don't know what your criteria are.

Winning 1 play-off game and making the play-offs 5 times is enough to justify Barry's career and salary, but making the play-offs twice and frankly getting jobbed out of a win isn't enough to justify Matt and CJ's career.

Barry is certainly a top 5, if not top 3 RB of all time. As to whether or not he is the best is a matter of debate. I haven't studied it, but off the top of my head I would say CJ is a HoF caliber WR, and I'd guess will end up in the top 20 of all time.

I struggle with the idea a HoF career is considered a waste.

Setting that aside, I'd suggest there is a better way to evaluate the value of a player than arbitrary guidelines like a play-off win or reaching the play-offs 5 times out of 8 as opposed to 2 times in 4 years.

Players should be evaluated by what they do on the field and what they contribute to the team, as opposed to the idea that they be evaluated based on team success or lack thereof.

You speak of bad comparisons, but to me, the bad comparison you make is the idea that all players have an equal chance at success. I don't think that is the case. Some players have benefit of great teammates and coaching, others do not.

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Since guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, etc. routinely performed against top ranked defenses throughout their careers (which helps explain why their teams win) im guessing they'd do just fine.

Evidence?

EDIT: Please note I am not saying it is true. I just am not willing to accept it as fact because conversationally it seems correct or fits a narrative neatly.

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Evidence?

EDIT: Please note I am not saying it is true. I just am not willing to accept it as fact because conversationally it seems correct or fits a narrative neatly.

I know off the top of my head since people love this useless stat, and since I have a lot of packers friends, that Matt Stafford and Aaron Rodgers have the exact same number of wins vs winning teams on the road in the last 3 seasons. 1. And both were this year.

So I agree, while he may be right, a lot of things accepted at face value end up not be true.

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Evidence?

EDIT: Please note I am not saying it is true. I just am not willing to accept it as fact because conversationally it seems correct or fits a narrative neatly.

Wlison...9 games this year have come against top 13 ranked D's. He has a 19:6 line with 1 rushing TD.

Brady...7 games 15:2 line with 1 rushing td.

These are the only 2 I feel like looking up, but these guys win basically every year and win in the playoffs, something tells me they're not playing 16 **** defenses.

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Wlison...9 games this year have come against top 13 ranked D's. He has a 19:6 line with 1 rushing TD.

Brady...7 games 15:2 line with 1 rushing td.

These are the only 2 I feel like looking up, but these guys win basically every year and win in the playoffs, something tells me they're not playing 16 **** defenses.

I never claimed they only play **** defenses. No need to create a strawman.

If you aren't willing to look up Brees, Roethlisberger, Brees, Rodgers, etc. then you can't claim them as part of the group, and I am not sure you can claim 2015 performance extends in the past for Brady and Wilson as well, but am not going to get into a pissing match about it.

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I would also add that if the argument ultimately boils down to unless you have Brady or Wilson on your team, you should not pay top dollar for a qb, well, I guess I don't understand how that position makes the Lions better.

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I don't know what your criteria are.

Players should be evaluated by what they do on the field and what they contribute to the team, as opposed to the idea that they be evaluated based on team success or lack thereof.

You speak of bad comparisons, but to me, the bad comparison you make is the idea that all players have an equal chance at success. I don't think that is the case. Some players have benefit of great teammates and coaching, others do not.

This is a QB driven league now and QB's are judged on winning. It's just how it is. Besides, it's not like Stafford has lit the world on fire his entire career and this team just refused to win.

Since 2009, this franchise has built around Stafford. They have dedicated a lot of money and 1st/2nd/3rd round draft picks on offense to give him them best possible chance to succeed. Im going to go out on a limb and say it hasnt really worked out the way everyone has hoped.

So why would i want to continue something that hasnt really worked out for the 1st 7 years, for another 7 years? To me, that's just insane. I think this team needs to close the window on the Stafford CJ era and go in a completely different direction.

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I never claimed they only play **** defenses. No need to create a strawman.

If you aren't willing to look up Brees, Roethlisberger, Brees, Rodgers, etc. then you can't claim them as part of the group, and I am not sure you can claim 2015 performance extends in the past for Brady and Wilson as well, but am not going to get into a pissing match about it.

Russell Wilson has a career 101 QB rating. He's been to the playoffs every year he's been in the league including 2 SB appearances. Common sense should tell you he performs against good teams. You think Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning/Roethlisberger have all won SBs, have all played in countless playoff games, put up monster numbers every year, and are considered some of the greatest QBs to ever play this game because they only play well against bad teams? So again, common sense should tell you they perform against top competition as well...

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Russell Wilson has a career 101 QB rating. He's been to the playoffs every year he's been in the league including 2 SB appearances. Common sense should tell you he performs against good teams. You think Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning/Roethlisberger have all won SBs, have all played in countless playoff games, put up monster numbers every year, and are considered some of the greatest QBs to ever play this game because they only play well against bad teams? So again, common sense should tell you they perform against top competition as well...

If my career has taught me anything, it is this: common sense and that which is commonly 'known' as fact ends up not being fact at all something like 30% of the time.

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Russell Wilson has a career 101 QB rating. He's been to the playoffs every year he's been in the league including 2 SB appearances. Common sense should tell you he performs against good teams. You think Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning/Roethlisberger have all won SBs, have all played in countless playoff games, put up monster numbers every year, and are considered some of the greatest QBs to ever play this game because they only play well against bad teams? So again, common sense should tell you they perform against top competition as well...

Funny that you mention Brees and Manning.

1) Stafford has a very similar career arc to Manning

First 5 seasons for Manning: 3 playoff losses) First 7(really 6) Seasons for Stafford: 2 playoff losses, 1 season wiped out by injury

Tons of gaudy Stats. Considered un-clutch by many. Stafford is breaking almost all of Manning's age based records.

2) Brees was run out of town exactly how you are proposing to run Stafford out. And yet you cite him as an example QB that should be kept.

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For some reason the site is not letting me post with a quote right now, but:

1. I do not think general managers or insiders as a group judge qbs largely or solely by wins. A couple might, and I am sure no shortage of fans do, but I strongly suspectGMs look a lot deeper than that.

2. I honestly do not care what Matt did in 2012 or 2010 or even how many weapons were drafted for him. I do not think what Stafford was 2 years ago limits what he is or will be. I care about what is the best thing for the team moving forward, be it with or without Matt.

Specific to 2., maybe it is only me, but a compelling argument for trading Stafford has to be centered on what the alternative will be and why that alternative is better.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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If my career has taught me anything, it is this: common sense and that which is commonly 'known' as fact ends up not being fact at all something like 30% of the time.

Im just going to assume you dont follow the NFL that closely because you seem unfamiliar with who these guys even are or what they have done in their careers...

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Im just going to assume you dont follow the NFL that closely because you seem unfamiliar with who these guys even are or what they have done in their careers...

What in my commentary suggests I don't follow the NFL?

All I am doing is questioning claims you are making, some of which seem over-stated or over-simplified to me. That, frankly, has nothing to do with how closely I do or do not follow the league.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Im just going to assume you dont follow the NFL that closely because you seem unfamiliar with who these guys even are or what they have done in their careers...

LMAO....

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