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davidsb

John Hiller - HoFer?

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OK, Sorry. How about Mike Marshall - 106 appearances and 208 innings in 1974. The Tigers could have used him last year.

Mike Marshall was a certifiable mutant. The run he had for four or five years in the 70's was incredible. Then he bounces back after a couple of down years and becomes the work horse again in his mid 30's....I almost mentioned him along with Campbell but I didn't think it would be fair to mention other species.

I like the idea of having a guy or guys who can give you multiple innings in the pen. Love to see them use Boyd that way.

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Mike Marshall once said "I don't exceed the stress limitations of my tissues". I think that he had a degree in kinesiology or something like that. Also he was kind of weird.

He also experimented with a pickoff move to second base - from the set position, take that little back step off the rubber but don't do the 180 turn with your body. Just whip the ball back to second in a backhand motion.

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I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure Bill James studied injury rates for 70's relievers and concluded there was no evidence how they were used led to more injuries than how relievers were used in the 90's.

Craig Wright did a big study of pitcher usage in Diamond Appraised in 1989, and he concluded that heavy usage of pitchers in the prior decades did leave to more pitcher injuries. I believe, though, that there are probably more pitcher injuries per innings pitched today because teams are more willing to recognize when pitchers are hurting and put them on the DL or have them get surgery, rather than having them power through the owies and risk their careers as they probably did in the pre-1980 era.

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I don't think it will ever reach the point where a team can do that with the entire rotation. There will always be pitchers that pitch 7+ innings, but I can see the #4 and #5 spots on a staff being split up some.

Oh, no question. Teams aren't going to suddenly go with a bunch of three inning pitchers for their entire pitching staff.

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It all goes back to the supposition that the same guy is going to have a lower ERA throwing 15 pitches two two days in a row as opposed to throwing 40-45 one day with a day or two off. I don't know how you prove that.

One variable that I wonder about is the effect of warm up pitches. At some point during a pre entry warm up, a pitcher is going close to all out. Probably not for too many throws. But I wonder how much an extra 10-20 games of warming up might take a toll. Or, put another way, shorter rest periods in between usage. I don't know how you measure a guy going throwing 80 innings over 70 games versus a guy that might throw 80 or more over only 50 or fewer games.

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He also experimented with a pickoff move to second base - from the set position, take that little back step off the rubber but don't do the 180 turn with your body. Just whip the ball back to second in a backhand motion.

That sounds interesting.

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I don't think it will ever reach the point where a team can do that with the entire rotation. There will always be pitchers that pitch 7+ innings, but I can see the #4 and #5 spots on a staff being split up some.

I agree with this. #1 and #2 are getting huge dollars per start, close to (or more than) a million dollars per. Even #3 type pitchers are getting pretty big dollars. I can't see any team giving out that kind of money for a 4 or 5 inning starting pitcher.

We'll never see a 300 IP SP ever again. If a SP is that good, he'll be either making huge dollars or be a couple of years away from them.

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Mike Marshall once said "I don't exceed the stress limitations of my tissues". I think that he had a degree in kinesiology or something like that. Also he was kind of weird.

Yeah, he has a PhD in kinesiology and coincidentally is probably the best athlete my hometown produced.

He has unique ideas and is very strong willed, which makes him kind of weird. But at the same time, my guess is he was 20 years ahead of his time relative to the coaches / managers he played for. And anyone who was a friend of Jim Bouton is ok in my book.

He also experimented with a pickoff move to second base - from the set position, take that little back step off the rubber but don't do the 180 turn with your body. Just whip the ball back to second in a backhand motion.

This reminds me of an article I read that was (ghost?) written by Johnny Evers. For those who don't know who Johnny was, he was a very good defensive 2nd baseman for the Cubs when they last won the World Series, which was over 100 years ago.

Back then there were lots of steal attempts. Perhaps an order of magnitude more than now. In the article, Johnny was talking about managing the running game as a middle infielder. In one passage he talked about how the Cubs managed the double steal with runners at the corners.

He claimed the Cubs in that situation had the catcher throw down to 2nd while Johnny broke for the mound (Tinker, the ss, covered 2nd). If the runner from 3rd broke for home, Evers would cut the throw to 2nd. If the runner at 3rd subsequently returned to 3rd upon the ball being cut, Evers would then underhand a backwards flip to Tinker covering 2nd to try to get the runner who broke from 1st to start the play.

I would love to see that play executed.

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Yeah, he has a PhD in kinesiology and coincidentally is probably the best athlete my hometown produced.

He claimed the Cubs in that situation had the catcher throw down to 2nd while Johnny broke for the mound (Tinker, the ss, covered 2nd). If the runner from 3rd broke for home, Evers would cut the throw to 2nd. If the runner at 3rd subsequently returned to 3rd upon the ball being cut, Evers would then underhand a backwards flip to Tinker covering 2nd to try to get the runner who broke from 1st to start the play.

I would love to see that play executed.

I'd love to see that too.

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We would run that play in HS. It was called "Gold" If runners were on 1st and 3rd and the coach felt it was one he'd yell Gold. That meant on a steal the fielders would do exactly that.

Edit to add: I am not sure we ever executed it in a game. We'd practice the hell out of it. Looking back after taking into account my 3 years as a basketball coach... I think he ran out of ideas in practice and liked to beat one thing in the ground. The infielders would get to practice it... the outfielders and IF subs would take turns being runners. Then the IF subs would switch in.

I did the same thing as a basketball coach because I had no idea what I was doing and if a drill seemed to be "easy" for me we'd keep doing it until it was time to end practice with the old free throw or run drill.

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I'll never forget the year he went 17-14 as a reliever.

I remember him for breaking Clay Carroll's record of 36 from the year before (who broke Wayne Granger's record of 35 from 2 years prior - both Reds :) )

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Craig Wright did a big study of pitcher usage in Diamond Appraised in 1989, and he concluded that heavy usage of pitchers in the prior decades did leave to more pitcher injuries. I believe, though, that there are probably more pitcher injuries per innings pitched today because teams are more willing to recognize when pitchers are hurting and put them on the DL or have them get surgery, rather than having them power through the owies and risk their careers as they probably did in the pre-1980 era.

Also, until 1990, there were limited DL spots, so you couldn't just put injured guys on the DL willy-nilly.

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We would run that play in HS. It was called "Gold" If runners were on 1st and 3rd and the coach felt it was one he'd yell Gold. That meant on a steal the fielders would do exactly that.

Edit to add: I am not sure we ever executed it in a game. We'd practice the hell out of it. Looking back after taking into account my 3 years as a basketball coach... I think he ran out of ideas in practice and liked to beat one thing in the ground. The infielders would get to practice it... the outfielders and IF subs would take turns being runners. Then the IF subs would switch in.

I did the same thing as a basketball coach because I had no idea what I was doing and if a drill seemed to be "easy" for me we'd keep doing it until it was time to end practice with the old free throw or run drill.

I can appreciate there are times in practice as a coach you run a drill largely to involve multiple players to keep everyone active.

EDIT: It's funny, but now that I have the experience of helping coach my sons' teams, I realize my coaches were just flying by the seat of their pants most of the time.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I can appreciate there are times in practice as a coach you run a drill largely to involve multiple players to keep everyone active.

EDIT: It's funny, but now that I have the experience of helping coach my sons' teams, I realize my coaches were just flying by the seat of their pants most of the time.

Yup, same here. I am assistant coaching 3rd & 4th grade girls basketball. Its my first go at basketball. Really was shocked that my daughter was interested in it at all. But what the heck, I'm going to be there anyway, so I might as well be help out.

The last practice was just me running it. I just broke them up into pairs and had them do a lot of dribbling. A lot of dribbling around and tough for me to observe 10 kids all at once, but I figured ball handling is pretty core to their development now.

I am still perplexed about the timing involved in the Cubs' pickoff play. It seems like it would eat up a lot of time with the throw down and the flip back?

Edited by Casimir

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Yup, same here. I am assistant coaching 3rd & 4th grade girls basketball. Its my first go at basketball. Really was shocked that my daughter was interested in it at all. But what the heck, I'm going to be there anyway, so I might as well be help out.

I am still perplexed about the timing involved in the Cubs' pickoff play. It seems like it would eat up a lot of time with the throw down and the flip back?

I think that play 'potentially' worked then because I think a lot of guys were sent that wouldn't be sent now, and sent much, much more frequently to boot. What SB/CS data exists suggests there were lots of guys running regularly who were successful only half the time or something, which suggests:

a. those particular players weren't great base-runners and/or

b. were on the wrong side of a failed hit and run a bit

To the extent a. was true, it may have been possible to cut a good throw and still get the runner at 2nd. It sounded like Evers wasn't that far from 2nd base (he made clear he was definately behind the mound) when he cut the throw. They had him cut the throw rather than the pitcher to try to catch the guy off of 3rd. If the guy at third wasn't far off enough to throw behind, Johnny immediately flipped to 2B.

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I think that play 'potentially' worked then because I think a lot of guys were sent that wouldn't be sent now, and sent much, much more frequently to boot. What SB/CS data exists suggests there were lots of guys running regularly who were successful only half the time or something, which suggests:

a. those particular players weren't great base-runners and/or

b. were on the wrong side of a failed hit and run a bit

To the extent a. was true, it may have been possible to cut a good throw and still get the runner at 2nd. It sounded like Evers wasn't that far from 2nd base (he made clear he was definately behind the mound) when he cut the throw. They had him cut the throw rather than the pitcher to try to catch the guy off of 3rd. If the guy at third wasn't far off enough to throw behind, Johnny immediately flipped to 2B.

I had kind of figured a had to be a factor. Hadn't thought about b, but given the era, it makes sense.

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I hope that is the next revolution in baseball. Relievers pitching multiple innings. Maybe pitching well enough to go through an entire lineup at least once. Maybe a manager realizing that if the 7th inning guy is pitching well enough, he might able to handle the 8th as well.

You mean like the 80s? Aurelio lopez pitched alot of multiple innings.

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You mean like the 80s? Aurelio lopez pitched alot of multiple innings.

Yeah, I just wonder if there is too much micro managing with the bullpen these days. If a guy is throwing well, leave him in rather than go to the same armed guy in the next inning.

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