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eastside billee

Pelfrey to the Tigers

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It's pretty obvious that the rotation is set now, right?

When you asked if that's what they needed to spend the money on, I assumed that to question whether the money could be spent on other parts of the team not just a question of the rotation. Yes, the rotation is likely set. I don't see a trade happening that involved the rotation. I do think he may be getting the signings out of the way so quickly in order to tinker with the rest of the roster, but I could be wrong.

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As for Funk's statement, did you notice the part where he labeled it as an irrational rant?

As I said above, I'm speaking for myself, not Funk.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for anybody, whether they are the owner, a reporter, a fan or even a disinterested observer to evaluate moves based on the clear expectation of the organization/owner. To rip that as "fan entitlement" is nonsense.

There's a big difference between what he posted and what you just posted, but keep moving the field goal posts. This is fun.

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There's a big difference between what he posted and what you just posted, but keep moving the field goal posts. This is fun.

Of course there is a huge difference between what he said (and labeled as an irrational rant) and what I said. I never attempted to address what Funk said.

I responded to your supercilious "entitled fan" snark.

The burden's on you to show where I've "moved the goal posts".

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When you asked if that's what they needed to spend the money on, I assumed that to question whether the money could be spent on other parts of the team not just a question of the rotation. Yes, the rotation is likely set. I don't see a trade happening that involved the rotation. I do think he may be getting the signings out of the way so quickly in order to tinker with the rest of the roster, but I could be wrong.

I have never questioned the $$, only the commitment of 2 years.

I have no doubt that more moves are coming.

If this were the roster going into ST, I'd say that this is likely a .500 team, with pretty good offense, mediocre defense, a rotation with some potential to be plus and to be way out of whack, and a well below average bullpen.

Of course, with the marquee talent at the top of the roster, if it's all healthy (JV, Sanchez, Miggy, VMart) they would have a reasonable chance to luck into a playoff berth if most of the ?? break favorably.

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Yes I think that the issue is the 2 years. It means that they won't release him after 15 starts no matter how awful he is. Looking at his career numbers it's astounding that he has stayed on a 25-man for all these years.

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When fan expectations = owner expectations....it's not fan entitlement.

so the owner wants to win and the owner approves all signings but this move doesn't help them win.

so was the owner was lying, or is he dumb, or does this move actually help them win? has to be one or the three or he wouldn't have approved.

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I believe that high expectations in any walk of life are reasonable as long as the resources are identified.

Also, to be passionate is not necessarily to be unreasonable....some very clear thinking emerges sometimes when I'm pissed off.

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so the owner wants to win and the owner approves all signings but this move doesn't help them win.

so was the owner was lying, or is he dumb, or does this move actually help them win? has to be one or the three or he wouldn't have approved.

Being wrong with a particular decision doesn't = a "dumb" owner. Nor does it = a "dumb" GM/staff. It does mean that better options should have been pursued.

You can't possibly suggest that smart owners and GMs never make mistakes.

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Being wrong with a particular decision doesn't = a "dumb" owner. Nor does it = a "dumb" GM/staff. It does mean that better options should have been pursued.

You can't possibly suggest that smart owners and GMs never make mistakes.

I'm just trying to figure out who you're mad at. Surely it's not the owner that expects (and lets you expect) a world championship every year.

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so the owner wants to win and the owner approves all signings but this move doesn't help them win.

so was the owner was lying, or is he dumb, or does this move actually help them win? has to be one or the three or he wouldn't have approved.

How do you figure that??? If you combine Price/Verlander's second half Pelfrey's stat line would better than the production they received from the other four pitchers in the rotation.

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I'm just trying to figure out who you're mad at. Surely it's not the owner that expects (and lets you expect) a world championship every year.

I'm neither upset nor do I expect a WC every year (or any year for that matter).

I can't reasonably expect a WC given the crapshoot nature of the playoffs.

I do expect them to build a team that will likely make the playoffs...which in the current context = will likely win at least 90 games.

At this point I think they are about a .500 team, provided that Miggy/VMart/JV are all reasonably healthy/productive. If one or two of them have good/full seasons, that would add another couple of wins or three.

If Sanchez/Norris are healthy/durable and exceed expectations then they are a winning team....add a good BP arm and a solid LFer and I think they have a pretty good shot...Ausmus would still have to exceed my expectations in terms of bullpen management.

If instead of a solid LFer like Fowler they were to get a plus LFer like Gordon, I would enter 2016 in a very optimistic frame of mind.

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic at this point.

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How do you figure that??? If you combine Price/Verlander's second half Pelfrey's stat line would better than the production they received from the other four pitchers in the rotation.

He's attempting to paraphrase what I was saying.

I'm not saying that Pelfrey isn't better than the bottom-level guys they threw out there...he certainly meets that meager test.

The question is whether this rotation as currently constructed, when combined with the ultimate bullpen, defense and offense that will be rounded out through the rest of the offseason, will be good enough to win 90+ games.

Getting Pelfrey places even more of a premium on improving the lousy bullpen than already existed....they just made a tough job a lot tougher.

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Very true....Pelfrey has had a long career of being below average, punctuated by several seasons where he approached mediocrity. And now, in the looming twilight of his career, we give him a nice 2-year deal as we attempt to compete for a title with a pitching staff that was awful last year and has several key health question marks in the rotation.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

What the hell.

Pelfrey may not hurt this team, but we needed a better pitcher.

You can't always look at past stats and say that is the sum of the player. The Tigers see something in this iteration of Mike Pelfrey and believe they can get two good years of production out him while they keep their youth as depth. Are they wrong? We'll see. Makes it interesting.

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He's attempting to paraphrase what I was saying.

I'm not saying that Pelfrey isn't better than the bottom-level guys they threw out there...he certainly meets that meager test.

Getting Pelfrey places even more of a premium on improving the lousy bullpen than already existed....they just made a tough job a lot tougher.

But if the goal was to fill as May holes as possible operating under a fiscal budget (40 million?) without sacrificing future resources then this is not the awful move most are saying it is. Sure I would love more upside as well but I do believe a mid rotation guy would have cost us signing anymore relief help. Chen, Gallardo, and Iwakuma will get contacts north of 15 million a season.

A trade would likely require parting with players that may help down the line for a team extremely top heavy with expensive contracts.

I have loved our moves in the past but believed a lot of our short comings over the years had more to do with going all in on big ticket signings.

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But if the goal was to fill as May holes as possible operating under a fiscal budget (40 million?) without sacrificing future resources then this is not the awful move most are saying it is. Sure I would love more upside as well but I do believe a mid rotation guy would have cost us signing anymore relief help. Chen, Gallardo, and Iwakuma will get contacts north of 15 million a season.

A trade would likely require parting with players that may help down the line for a team extremely top heavy with expensive contracts.

I have loved our moves in the past but believed a lot of our short comings over the years had more to do with going all in on big ticket signings.

I agree with you. The mid-tier guys seemed out of budget, or AA got the sense that they would require an overpay. One thing AA has been clear about is that he doesn't want to give out bad contracts. Maybe the VMart deal was the last straw in money being no object.

I get sabre's argument that Pelfrey is underwhelming, and that they don't have a '50-percentile 90 win' team that's favored to win the division. But it's a solid roster-building signing. We have 3 guys making over $16M in the rotation, it's probably not a wise use of money to go for 4 guys over that for the next 2 or more years. That money is better spent on the bullpen (AA has basically promised one good signing there), as you said. Or if MI wants to splurge, on a LF.

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At this point I think they are about a .500 team, provided that Miggy/VMart/JV are all reasonably healthy/productive. If one or two of them have good/full seasons, that would add another couple of wins or three.

I've got them at 84 wins without anybody having an exceptional year.

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I'm neither upset nor do I expect a WC every year (or any year for that matter).

I can't reasonably expect a WC given the crapshoot nature of the playoffs.

I do expect them to build a team that will likely make the playoffs...which in the current context = will likely win at least 90 games.

At this point I think they are about a .500 team, provided that Miggy/VMart/JV are all reasonably healthy/productive. If one or two of them have good/full seasons, that would add another couple of wins or three.

If Sanchez/Norris are healthy/durable and exceed expectations then they are a winning team....add a good BP arm and a solid LFer and I think they have a pretty good shot...Ausmus would still have to exceed my expectations in terms of bullpen management.

If instead of a solid LFer like Fowler they were to get a plus LFer like Gordon, I would enter 2016 in a very optimistic frame of mind.

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic at this point.

I guess it depends on perspective. We won 4 divisions in a row, and in many ways paid the price for that win then philosophy the past season (i.e. losing Scherzer, Jake Thompson), and therefore going forward. I want to get back to the playoffs as quickly as possible, but any short-cuts you take now will hurt you in the future. That's okay when you have a legit WS roster, but we did not come into the off-season with that, and cannot build to that without committing to a $200M payroll for the next several seasons.

That's not saying that if we don't play at our 80th percentile in 2016 like the Astros did, we won't make it. That's what I'll be rooting for: JV being at or close to a #1 for a full season, VMart being healthy and bouncing back, Miggy being healthy, and Anibal being healthy would be that essentially happening.

But that 4 division-titles-in-a-row-favored-every-year-team did not get built in a single off-season, and I don't expect our next one to get built in a single off-season either.

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I think I have like 82, with downside at like 77 and upside at 91.

If I'm being more optimistic than you, I might be doing something wrong! I'm way more optimistic than Steamer about JD Martinez, but I've still got him at 0.5 fewer WAR than last year.

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No mention of how much money yet:

HardballTalk@HardballTalk 19s19 seconds ago

Report: Giants sign Jeff Samardzija to a five-year deal http://wp.me/p14QSL-2rWx

Edit:

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS 7m7 minutes ago

Samardzija goes to giants. 5 yrs, 90M

Zimmermann deal looks pretty good.

Edited by tiger337

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Yes, I'm an entitled fan. I believe the Tigers are the greatest team in professional sports. We deserve the best players, the best manager, the best owner, and all the championships. And yes, more often than not I will refer to the Tigers as "we".

I am this way as a fan because it's just sports and in my real life it's impossible to act this way. Moreover, when you have players who are now making thousands and thousands of dollars per pitch, I think fans have a right to act this way if they choose.

You may not like it, but I am pissed the tigers are not as good now as they were a few years ago, and have resorted to signing people we are not excited about.

Being irrational and entitled, I will also rejoice as loud as anyone when Al proves himself a genius, and the Tigers March to the World Series in 2016.

Edited by thefunk

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Mehh. Rotation filler. I am not opposed to it. Would like to see Fister given a cheap deal to see if he can reclaim his magic. Time to load up on bullpen pitchers now. Also wouldn't mind some depth starting pitchers in Toledo AAAA types.

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I saw him pitch a couple times last season. Like Simon he is typically strong for a few innings but by the 2nd and 3rd times through the order he is prone to giving up a big crooked number. Hi character guy. Teammates will like him. Fans will tire of him. I know a lot of Twins fans and they're all scratching their heads at this deal. The Twins are desperate for starting pitching but were not interested in bringing him back. He keeps the ball in the ballpark, so maybe Comerica will help.

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If I'm being more optimistic than you, I might be doing something wrong! I'm way more optimistic than Steamer about JD Martinez, but I've still got him at 0.5 fewer WAR than last year.

classic lee, can't stay objective :classic:

JD had 5 fWAR last year, I don't see him matching that, if for no other reason than he can't possibly play that well defensively again. I think I have 3.5 for him, still 1 more than steamer. I'm pretty close to steamer on a lot of it, but with ~1 WAR bump ups for JV, JD, and Iggy. About 33 WAR total.

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