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Shinma

11/22/15. Raiders at Lions. Week 11. CBS, 1:05pm.

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White will be the Rooney Rule candidate.

Anyway, you can't control the future by rooting for the team to lose, any more than you can keep a bowling ball out of the gutter by leaning to the left.

Nice analogy. I never root for my team to lose. Never. That just fosters a losers mentality. Win every game.

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Uhhhh... everybody knows this?

But is Rob Gronkowski a supporting piece? He was a second round pick, which means every team passed on him (yes, I know he had an injury history) and he will likely go to the HOF. (Can't wait to see that induction speech.) Jamie Collins was their first pick in 2013, at #52, and he is one of their most versatile defenders. Chandler Jones has 34 sacks in 3+ seasons, and was picked #21.

There is talent beyond the top ten picks. And the Lions have repeatedly picked in the top ten yet still can't win consistently. I'd rather see them win than pick high.

You ripped my heart out man. I thought I was a football genius by saying that about New England.

My point was that they can pretty much add anyone(off the street, any round draft pick, etc) and they seem to contribute in some way to their success.

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How about those that want the lions to lose get to root for a loss without being ridiculed and called names, and those that want the Lions to win can root for them to win without being ridiculed and called names. Deal?

The difference of opinions is what makes this forum great.

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My point was that they can pretty much add anyone(off the street, any round draft pick, etc) and they seem to contribute in some way to their success.

And I'd be willing to bet anything his counter-point will be that is because the Patriots are very good at identifying which athletes can contribute in their system and those players are more readily available than conventional wisdom often suggests.

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If there was a franchise changer at the top of the draft, I'd be all in with Tank Nation but this draft looks to be very pedestrian at the top so if they win some games, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's still a bad team and they will most likely finish 5-11 or 6-10 so they will still draft pretty high in each round.

The bottom line is that the new GM and scouting staff is going to have to draft a hell of a lot better than the previous regime did. Good organizations draft well regardless of what spot they are drafting from.

And LOL at those thinking that this team finishes 8-8 or 9-7. Settle down, there's plenty of suck left in this team yet.

Edited by NYLion

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You ripped my heart out man. I thought I was a football genius by saying that about New England.

My point was that they can pretty much add anyone(off the street, any round draft pick, etc) and they seem to contribute in some way to their success.

You're right. And apologies if I went too far. They do have a strong system there, in which Belichick has made it clear what everybody's job is, from front office to coaching staff to roster to practice squad, so they can assimilate a running back one week who rushed for 200+, then never use him again so that message-board posters like myself don't even remember his name. But they have picked some pretty good football players from the bottom half of the first round and beyond - players who would be difference makers on just about any team.

Teams are certainly more likely to hit a home run at the top of the draft, but they're also in danger of striking out (Andre Ware, Joey Harrington, Charles Rogers, Mike Williams). I just don't want to see my team lay down for the chance of having an earlier roll in the crap shoot.

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How about those that want the lions to lose get to root for a loss without being ridiculed and called names, and those that want the Lions to win can root for them to win without being ridiculed and called names. Deal?

Who is the deal between? I think everyone should have to sign a form or something.

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If there was a franchise changer at the top of the draft, I'd be all in with Tank Nation but this draft looks to be very pedestrian at the top so if they win some games, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's still a bad team and they will most likely finish 5-11 or 6-10 so they will still draft pretty high in each round.

The bottom line is that the new GM and scouting staff is going to have to draft a hell of a lot better than the previous regime did. Good organizations draft well regardless of what spot they are drafting from.

And LOL at those thinking that this team finishes 8-8 or 9-7. Settle down, there's plenty of suck left in this team yet.

I disagree about there not being a franchise changer atop the draft. I think there are a possibly a couple left tackles.

I agree about there being plenty of suck left on this team. There is plenty of suck on some of the teams they play in the remaining schedule too. I don't think 2 or 3 more wins is impossible.

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I disagree about there not being a franchise changer atop the draft. I think there are a possibly a couple left tackles.

I agree about there being plenty of suck left on this team. There is plenty of suck on some of the teams they play in the remaining schedule too. I don't think 2 or 3 more wins is impossible.

Left tackles are pretty hit or miss though. Almost like a goalie in hockey, it's very difficult to project these guys at the next level.

There's nobody that's worth pining over IMO. For instance, in Suh's draft year, I was hoping like hell that the Lions would be in position to draft him. If there was a Luck in this draft, the same would hold true.

I just don't see any sure things although a mammoth LT would certainly be welcome.

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You're right. And apologies if I went too far.....

No need to apologize to me. It's all good fun.

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For those of you who want the Lions to keep on winning for the sake of winning and don't value strategic losses, I have a question. Do you think winning increases the likelihood that White and Caldwell stay? If so, can we be successful with those two at the helm long-term?

Logically I can agree that for the long term, losing makes more sense. I don't want to see White kept as GM. i don't want to see Caldwell kept as HC. I do want a higher draft pick. All this makes perfect logical sense to me and Monday through Saturday I might even advocate for losing out.

But as a fan, I just can't do it on Sunday. I can't watch the team and ROOT for them to lose. I just can't. If they do lose I can comfort myself this years easily by saying it's better long term. But during the game I still want to see them win it.

This was especially true in the GB game. I REALLY wanted the win there. REALLY... just to shut up the tired crap about not having won in Wisconsin since blah, blah, blah... I'm very happy to have done with that.

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For sure, but when you are a losing franchise like the Lions I don't think the value of gaining some wins and possibly help change the culture is zero either. Plus looking at the schedule I would say that we will be either favorites or at most 1 possession underdogs for every game left. Why not roll the dice and hope for the best the rest of the way? We only get to see 16 games a year, rooting for them to lose half way through the season is no fun.

Hence the first part of my post. From what was being said though, it just felt like the second part needed to be said by someone.

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Logically I can agree that for the long term, losing makes more sense. I don't want to see White kept as GM. i don't want to see Caldwell kept as HC. I do want a higher draft pick. All this makes perfect logical sense to me and Monday through Saturday I might even advocate for losing out.

But as a fan, I just can't do it on Sunday. I can't watch the team and ROOT for them to lose. I just can't. If they do lose I can comfort myself this years easily by saying it's better long term. But during the game I still want to see them win it.

This was especially true in the GB game. I REALLY wanted the win there. REALLY... just to shut up the tired crap about not having won in Wisconsin since blah, blah, blah... I'm very happy to have done with that.

This.... Exactly how I feel.

For me, it's a little different if we're coming down to the last couple of weeks of the season when at that point it's all about draft position but there's too much season left to be rooting for losses each game right now.

Just like you, I'm glad that they excorsied the Lambeau Demon, so sick of hearing about that losing streak every flipping year.

However, I see the rationale behind not wanting to see White retained and Caldwell retained beyond this season but I think barring a long winning streak to end the season that each are lame ducks.

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I would put a LT as priority #1 going into the offseason for the Lions. Starting caliber LTs cost an arm and a leg in free agency. The best way to address this would be the draft. Unfortunately unless you are drafting near the top, you are not going to get one. Getting a LT would fix two holes as I believe Reiff would be at least average at RT.

Winning significantly hurts the lions. With all the holes on the roster, money spent on a LT would be better used on defense. Also, winning increases the odds of Caldwell returning which sickens me. The value of winning 2 or 3 more games in attracting free agents is minimal at best. It's also worth pointing out that even thought the Lions won two games, their offense still sucks. Scoring 18 points a game is generally not enough to win any game, they are absurdly lucky to have won both games scoring that many points.

Its never bad to have a good LT, but in my recent experience, it also hasn't been a defining feature of top teams to have a LT above the Reilly Reiff level.

I wouldn't hate a LT, but I love the defenders in the top 10. Bosa, Ogbah,Hargreaves etc.

Edited by Nastradamus

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For those of you who want the Lions to keep on winning for the sake of winning and don't value strategic losses, I have a question. Do you think winning increases the likelihood that White and Caldwell stay? If so, can we be successful with those two at the helm long-term?

Have we been successful without them? Has 50+ years of losing gotten us such high picks that we were EVER a powerhouse?

Root to lose so we'll get high draft picks? No, after 50+ years, I think we should hope for a different route.

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Let's just all stick to the middle. Hopefully in my dream utopian world, Calvin Johnson will go ham down the stretch and finish with 2,500 yards receiving while leading the Lions to a super bowl win. He'll be enshrined in Canton immediately after the game and elected mayor of Detroit. His strong focus on sanitation and innovation in college will pay off, as he remakes the motor city as a model of modern America and revitalizes the entire state. He ends up being President of the United States for 8 years of peace and prosperity, going down in history as one of the greatest men in American history.

Now in the real world, where the Lions will lose several more games, I hope they lose a lot, everyone gets fired, and they get a top draft pick. On an individual game basis, I'll root for option #1 and President Calvin. In an overarching realistic philosophy, we'll stick with #2.

Everyone is happy.

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Let's just all stick to the middle. Hopefully in my dream utopian world, Calvin Johnson will go ham down the stretch and finish with 2,500 yards receiving while leading the Lions to a super bowl win. He'll be enshrined in Canton immediately after the game and elected mayor of Detroit. His strong focus on sanitation and innovation in college will pay off, as he remakes the motor city as a model of modern America and revitalizes the entire state. He ends up being President of the United States for 8 years of peace and prosperity, going down in history as one of the greatest men in American history.

Now in the real world, where the Lions will lose several more games, I hope they lose a lot, everyone gets fired, and they get a top draft pick. On an individual game basis, I'll root for option #1 and President Calvin. In an overarching realistic philosophy, we'll stick with #2.

Everyone is happy.

My utopian world: Mrs. Ford has said to the family, "Your father and I never agreed on how to run the team. I always thought Mayhew and Lewand were a bunch of suck-ups, taking advantage of your father's naiveté. I fired those clowns the first chance I got, and hired Rod, because he knows enough about you all not to let you bully him or play sibling rivalry games with him. Sheldon will keep the GM seat warm, and be the Rooney Rule candidate, but the new GM will have full power to decide on his staff, including coaches. In any case, I am determined that my legacy as owner will be in leaving this franchise in the hands of capable leadership from proven winners in the NFL."

It's not implausible.

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For those of you who want the Lions to keep on winning for the sake of winning and don't value strategic losses, I have a question. Do you think winning increases the likelihood that White and Caldwell stay? If so, can we be successful with those two at the helm long-term?

If they keep White and Caldwell just because of some late season wins then it doesn't matter anyway as they would have just botched the GM decision.

Edited by sagnam

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Have we been successful without them? Has 50+ years of losing gotten us such high picks that we were EVER a powerhouse?

Root to lose so we'll get high draft picks? No, after 50+ years, I think we should hope for a different route.

This.

They have lost enough.

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I used to root for the draft pick, but the Lions have consistently shown over the years an ineptness at making the right pick anyway - so I root for them to win every game..always. If they start to suck, I shut it off. I understand those that value the pick believing it would be better for the franchise in the future if they had a higher pick, I just don't like rooting for my favorite team to lose. To each his own.

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If they keep White and Caldwell just because of some late season wins then it doesn't matter anyway as they would have just botched the GM decision.

I think it's possible that a winning streak could lend ammunition to White and Caldwell to convince Wood that they do know what they are doing and deserve at least another year to show it for sure. Wood, being inexperienced in football matters might be able to be swayed by the right talk and decide to keep them.

Contrast this with a poor performance going out of the season which would almost surely mean a different GM, and therefore probably a different coach. It's possible that if Wood interviewed enough candidates and had some help from the NFL he could find the right guy.

This is why getting a non-football guy as the Pres. worries me. An experienced, knowledgeable guy would be able to see through the smoke screen.

(Of course, all this is conjecture and speculation on my part. Maybe Wood will see through the smoke screen. Maybe he will reject White as a permanent replacement but still botch the GM hire.)

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On a side note, I do think that this thread is very telling re: Fans attitude with the Lions. I believe there's now been more discussion about whether the Lions should have won or not than there was of the actual game.

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I think it's possible that a winning streak could lend ammunition to White and Caldwell to convince Wood that they do know what they are doing and deserve at least another year to show it for sure. Wood, being inexperienced in football matters might be able to be swayed by the right talk and decide to keep them.

Contrast this with a poor performance going out of the season which would almost surely mean a different GM, and therefore probably a different coach. It's possible that if Wood interviewed enough candidates and had some help from the NFL he could find the right guy.

This is why getting a non-football guy as the Pres. worries me. An experienced, knowledgeable guy would be able to see through the smoke screen.

(Of course, all this is conjecture and speculation on my part. Maybe Wood will see through the smoke screen. Maybe he will reject White as a permanent replacement but still botch the GM hire.)

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's going to sound kind of stupid and it's not really directed at you in particular, but do you think you know substantially more about football than Wood?

If it is so obvious to casual fans or even die hard fans that white shouldn't be an option, isn't it fair to assume that it would also be clear to Wood.

It's almost as if people are assuming wood doesn't know the first thing about football, the NFL, or the lions and their recent history.

None of us here have held a job in football yet we all act like experts. I don't see why wood can't see the same things we do and make an informed decision when the time comes.

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