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Shinma

10/25/15. Vikings at Lions. Week 7, FOX, 1:05pm.

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I think my favorite play in the picture was top right. Reiff and Tomlinson had pushed down to their right to block the interior of the line so the edge guy was running free, for some reason it was on Swanson to swing from his center position to pick him up...he didn't get there in time.

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Does anyone have a picture of the play where Ebron pretty much let the defender fly right past him to destroy Stafford?

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I didnt check earlier in the thread, so.. yeah.

Edited by Shinma

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Here is the classic Ebron block. Ebron Kind of touches the defender and lets him fly by him and tells Stafford to run for his life.

A Look at the Lions 7 Sacks that they Gave Up

4:51 -- Third-and-11, Lions 19-yard line

This is classic Mike Zimmer -- show one thing, do something completely different. The Vikings overloaded to the right side of Detroit's formation, but brought all the pressure from the left side, blitzing the corner from the slot and stunting one of the linebackers from their pre-snap positioning over the A-gap.

Beyond having more rushers than blockers, tight end Eric Ebron whiffs, exacerbating the issue.

film9jpg-09419d5efd5a2121.jpg

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Here is the classic Ebron block. Ebron Kind of touches the defender and lets him fly by him and tells Stafford to run for his life.

A Look at the Lions 7 Sacks that they Gave Up

film9jpg-09419d5efd5a2121.jpg

But a D can only do something like that if the O isn't capable of burning them for putting a DLineman on the right side receiver and leaving a hot route open on the left. It always come down to execution and execution is about coaching. The plays have to be in the playbook and the players have know them and blockers have to block. Football is complex but the components are pretty simple. Read, run, block, pass. The Lions ineptitude goes to all levels: personnel, playbook, drill, discipline. You lack those things you are bad team and you will abused by teams that can exploit your weaknesses just like MN did. It's not that MN is so brilliant - they wont try that D against NE because it's probably 6 pts the other way (well probably a 1st down anyway...)

Edited by Gehringer_2

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I mean, if you have a QB who's QBR goes down 4 years in a row, you should probably get rid of him and try something new, even if his OL and running game suck, right? But enough about Andrew Luck this is a Lions thread!

Sorry couldn't help myself

What site's QBR are you using? Just out of curiosity. I have checked NFL, ESPN, and even PFF QBR and all them have Luck progressing in years 1-3 and then dropping this year, which to me passes the eye test. I would be interested in what site has his QBR last year as lower than his rookie year after 40 TD to go along with 6.2 TD%, 7.73 Y/A, and almost 62 comp%.

Both teams and QBs are clearly flawed this year, that being said I think EVERYONE, yourself included, would take Luck over Stafford. I imagine that both QBs are by-and-large over valued due to the fantasy football effect on the NFL, they both put up huge volume numbers but are not the most accurate quarterbacks. I would still put Luck at a tier higher than Stafford but below the Rodgers and Brady types of the NFL.

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.....I would still put Luck at a tier higher than Stafford but below the Rodgers and Brady types of the NFL.

Where would you rank the Lions offensive line right now? The performance by the Lions offensive line against the Vikings is one of the worst performances by an NFL line I have ever seen.

Stafford has not looked great, but his line is clearly pathetic right now.

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Where would you rank the Lions offensive line right now? The performance by the Lions offensive line against the Vikings is one of the worst performances by an NFL line I have ever seen.

Stafford has not looked great, but his line is clearly pathetic right now.

So, a few questions...one, what does this have to do with my statement? Do you think that Stafford is better than Luck and only looks poor because his OL? I ask because your question kind of came out of no where and I'm just wondering what your over-arching point is.

Two, how many non-Lions performances (aka games start to finish) do you watch a year? Do you watch every single game? Did you watch the entire KC vs. GB game in week 3 when Alex Smith got sacked 7 times and hurried 18 times? Have you watched all of Seattle's games and see Russell Wilson have to run for his life and make fantastic running plans game-in-and game out (he has been sacked almost twice as much as Stafford). I just am curious because unless you are watching 14-16 full-length games a week your definition of the worst performance in the NFL that you have ever seen doesn't mean much to me, not trying to be rude...just honest.

Third, to answer your question I would put them in the bottom third in pass protection and the bottom 3 for run blocking. Stafford has been sacked 16 times, he gets sacked once every 16.4 pass attempts which would put him at 14th in the league sandwiched in between Brady and Rodgers interestingly enough (who get sacked 1:15.69 and 1:16.55 per pass attempt respectively). Now, I think there are clearly certain defenses that the Lions OL have struggled against (Minn and Denver) and made them look quite poor, but outside of those 3 games the most sacks given up in a game have been 2 against Chicago last week which, interestingly enough, looked to be the best game the OL had so far this season. When taking into consideration total pressures and not just sacks Stafford ranks 7th. Again, right around where I would rank the OL in passing defense (7th worst...bottom 3rd). Now, Luck happens to be higher up on the list at 5th, so your point that Stafford looks worse than Luck simply due to pressure has no leg to stand on as I think both have looked poor this season.

I personally think that the OL has looked worse in pass protection than they are for a few reasons:

1) It isn't just the OL. Ebron has been truly awful. He has given up as many sacks (if not more) than any member of the OL. The running backs haven't helped at all either, Bell, for all his faults, was our best in pass protection and he has been injured and ineffective all year.

2) I think there is a lack of leadership/too many young and inexperienced starters. The sacks we give up are, more often than most, egregious in the fact that it is due to guys reaching the QB without getting touched. The amount of blown assignments is eye-opening and I think they is due less to skill and more to lack of leadership and experience.

3) Stafford. Stafford is below average navigating within the pocket, evading rushers, and throwing on the run. You don't necessarily notice that Russell Wilson gets pressured so often because he is so evasive and successful throwing on the run/when under pressure. Stafford's Accuracy% (amount of targeted pass attempts that are completed without counting dropped passes and throw aways against the QB) is 57.7%, Wilson's is 76.2%. Stafford's accuracy while under pressure is ranked 26th out of 30 qualified QBs. His poor performance when under pressure makes those pressures even more glaring.

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What site's QBR are you using? Just out of curiosity. I have checked NFL, ESPN, and even PFF QBR and all them have Luck progressing in years 1-3 and then dropping this year, which to me passes the eye test. I would be interested in what site has his QBR last year as lower than his rookie year after 40 TD to go along with 6.2 TD%, 7.73 Y/A, and almost 62 comp%.

Both teams and QBs are clearly flawed this year, that being said I think EVERYONE, yourself included, would take Luck over Stafford. I imagine that both QBs are by-and-large over valued due to the fantasy football effect on the NFL, they both put up huge volume numbers but are not the most accurate quarterbacks. I would still put Luck at a tier higher than Stafford but below the Rodgers and Brady types of the NFL.

ESPN homey. Did you read backwards?

Andrew Luck Stats - Indianapolis Colts - ESPN

and yes, I would take Luck over Stafford. That wasn't the point. The point was that almost any QB will suffer with a bad supporting cast and people overreact and want to dump them too quickly.

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Also, I don't think Stafford has been perfect, but I thought he did well against Minnesota. 126 passer rating, 9.8 ypa, almost 70% comp. QBR of 38, but QBR blames QB mostly for sacks. That's probably true overall, but did anyone think that was the case in the MInnesota game? If so I guess I back off.

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So, a few questions...one....pressures even more glaring.

Do you think if Stafford had an above average line, he would be playing at, above, or below his current level?

I think the Lions biggest problem is clearly their offensive line and that is all I am trying to say. The offensive line is terrible and they were flat out garbage against the Vikings.

......The point was that almost any QB will suffer with a bad supporting cast and people overreact and want to dump them too quickly.

I agree and if I was drafting for the Lions after this season, QB wouldn't be my priority but offensive tackle would be.

Edited by nd1377

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So, a few questions...one, what does this have to do with my statement? Do you think that Stafford is better than Luck and only looks poor because his OL? I ask because your question kind of came out of no where and I'm just wondering what your over-arching point is.

Two, how many non-Lions performances (aka games start to finish) do you watch a year? Do you watch every single game? Did you watch the entire KC vs. GB game in week 3 when Alex Smith got sacked 7 times and hurried 18 times? Have you watched all of Seattle's games and see Russell Wilson have to run for his life and make fantastic running plans game-in-and game out (he has been sacked almost twice as much as Stafford). I just am curious because unless you are watching 14-16 full-length games a week your definition of the worst performance in the NFL that you have ever seen doesn't mean much to me, not trying to be rude...just honest.

Third, to answer your question I would put them in the bottom third in pass protection and the bottom 3 for run blocking. Stafford has been sacked 16 times, he gets sacked once every 16.4 pass attempts which would put him at 14th in the league sandwiched in between Brady and Rodgers interestingly enough (who get sacked 1:15.69 and 1:16.55 per pass attempt respectively). Now, I think there are clearly certain defenses that the Lions OL have struggled against (Minn and Denver) and made them look quite poor, but outside of those 3 games the most sacks given up in a game have been 2 against Chicago last week which, interestingly enough, looked to be the best game the OL had so far this season. When taking into consideration total pressures and not just sacks Stafford ranks 7th. Again, right around where I would rank the OL in passing defense (7th worst...bottom 3rd). Now, Luck happens to be higher up on the list at 5th, so your point that Stafford looks worse than Luck simply due to pressure has no leg to stand on as I think both have looked poor this season.

I personally think that the OL has looked worse in pass protection than they are for a few reasons:

1) It isn't just the OL. Ebron has been truly awful. He has given up as many sacks (if not more) than any member of the OL. The running backs haven't helped at all either, Bell, for all his faults, was our best in pass protection and he has been injured and ineffective all year.

2) I think there is a lack of leadership/too many young and inexperienced starters. The sacks we give up are, more often than most, egregious in the fact that it is due to guys reaching the QB without getting touched. The amount of blown assignments is eye-opening and I think they is due less to skill and more to lack of leadership and experience.

3) Stafford. Stafford is below average navigating within the pocket, evading rushers, and throwing on the run. You don't necessarily notice that Russell Wilson gets pressured so often because he is so evasive and successful throwing on the run/when under pressure. Stafford's Accuracy% (amount of targeted pass attempts that are completed without counting dropped passes and throw aways against the QB) is 57.7%, Wilson's is 76.2%. Stafford's accuracy while under pressure is ranked 26th out of 30 qualified QBs. His poor performance when under pressure makes those pressures even more glaring.

way way way too long didn't read

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ESPN homey. Did you read backwards?

Andrew Luck Stats - Indianapolis Colts - ESPN

and yes, I would take Luck over Stafford. That wasn't the point. The point was that almost any QB will suffer with a bad supporting cast and people overreact and want to dump them too quickly.

No I didn't, did you? Maybe I misread your original post?

2012: 76.5

2013: 87

2014: 96.5

2015: 76.2

That isn't declining 4 years straight. And to be fair, while those around Luck have struggled thins year, his main issue has been accuracy both when under pressure and when free of pressure.

Edit:

The mobile site only lists his rating, not QBR. That was the issue.

Edited by EchO

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way way way too long didn't read

Don't think I would consider 600 words "way way way too long" but to each their own.

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Do you think if Stafford had an above average line, he would be playing at, above, or below his current level?

I think the Lions biggest problem is clearly their offensive line and that is all I am trying to say. The offensive line is terrible and they were flat out garbage against the Vikings.

I agree and if I was drafting for the Lions after this season, QB wouldn't be my priority but offensive tackle would be.

This to me seems like a silly question...but I will humor you. Of course he would be playing better. I would venture to guess that every QB in the NFL would play better if they had a better line than they currently have. I still don't see your point, I would still take Luck over him which seemed to have been the point you were contesting.

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This to me seems like a silly question...but I will humor you. Of course he would be playing better. I would venture to guess that every QB in the NFL would play better if they had a better line than they currently have. I still don't see your point, I would still take Luck over him which seemed to have been the point you were contesting.

My point is I am a Lions fan and Stafford is the greatest QB in the world, but some of his teammates seem to be underperforming so he doesn't look like the greatest QB in the world right now.

On the other hand, Luck is not a Lion so he is not the greatest QB in the world.

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No I didn't, did you? Maybe I misread your original post?

2012: 76.5

2013: 87

2014: 96.5

2015: 76.2

That isn't declining 4 years straight. And to be fair, while those around Luck have struggled thins year, his main issue has been accuracy both when under pressure and when free of pressure.

Edit:

The mobile site only lists his rating, not QBR. That was the issue.

Yup, wrong stat

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I say the same about Stafford repeatedly though. Step away from being either overly frustrated or overly optimistic FANS and look at what he really is in a vaccuum and you basically have Eli or Carson Palmer. Those guys have had their ups and downs, but they've remained productive late into their careers and I think its been shown that you can build a contender around a player like that. I mean, lets put it this way, teams like the Browns and Bills have probably had similar overall talent to us over the last 4 years. They have zero combined playoff appearances in that time, we have 2. Now, that doesn't mean you should settle for making the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round, but it also shouldn't be taken for granted. Stafford doesn't become a different QB if you have a well called offense and Mayhew hits his draft picks, but he's probably not a big topic of conversation if those things were true.

At the same time, sometimes you can trade a Carson Palmer for 2 firsts and draft an Andy Dalton. If you can figure out this scenario, go for it. As long as everything is in proper perspective.

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This to me seems like a silly question...but I will humor you. Of course he would be playing better. I would venture to guess that every QB in the NFL would play better if they had a better line than they currently have. I still don't see your point, I would still take Luck over him which seemed to have been the point you were contesting.

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting or even humoring Stafford over Luck fwiw. My initial comment was tongue in cheek, for the sake of a little perspective and a laugh.

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I say the same about Stafford repeatedly though. Step away from being either overly frustrated or overly optimistic FANS and look at what he really is in a vaccuum and you basically have Eli or Carson Palmer. Those guys have had their ups and downs, but they've remained productive late into their careers and I think its been shown that you can build a contender around a player like that. I mean, lets put it this way, teams like the Browns and Bills have probably had similar overall talent to us over the last 4 years. They have zero combined playoff appearances in that time, we have 2. Now, that doesn't mean you should settle for making the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round, but it also shouldn't be taken for granted. Stafford doesn't become a different QB if you have a well called offense and Mayhew hits his draft picks, but he's probably not a big topic of conversation if those things were true.

At the same time, sometimes you can trade a Carson Palmer for 2 firsts and draft an Andy Dalton. If you can figure out this scenario, go for it. As long as everything is in proper perspective.

I think this is all fair. I don't consider myself a Stafford hater at all. He isn't the style of QB I would choose to build a franchise around but I also don't disagree that having an average to possibly above average "gun slinging" QB can win you a championship. My greater concern on the team is the lack of depth across the board which is a result of poor drafting. It's a big concern of mine that every year we will (seemingly) have to fill major holes with FA acquisitions.

It did seem like nd1337 was suggesting he would rather have Stafford over Luck although I'm still not sure if he was joking or not.

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I think this is all fair. I don't consider myself a Stafford hater at all. He isn't the style of QB I would choose to build a franchise around but I also don't disagree that having an average to possibly above average "gun slinging" QB can win you a championship. My greater concern on the team is the lack of depth across the board which is a result of poor drafting. It's a big concern of mine that every year we will (seemingly) have to fill major holes with FA acquisitions.

It did seem like nd1337 was suggesting he would rather have Stafford over Luck although I'm still not sure if he was joking or not.

Its not that easy to "choose" the style of QB you'd like to build around is all I'm saying. There are generally less than 20 worth their salt in the NFL and all the talk is that we are about to hit a drought when it comes to good QB prospects due to them not being taught reads and snapping from under center in college(its been headed that way, but its getting more drastic). Its basically a battle of the 15-20 teams that have a QB every year, with the teams that draft the best likely to come out on top. Yah, if you get Rodgers or Brady you have a huge edge, but sometimes you simply don't have the luxury of adding one of the(arguably) top 2-5 QBs of all time.

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There are generally less than 20 worth their salt in the NFL and all the talk is that we are about to hit a drought when it comes to good QB prospects due to them not being taught reads and snapping from under center in college(its been headed that way, but its getting more drastic).

This is so true, and I find it astounding. Here is a line of work where teams are begging to find someone they can sign a $120 million contract with, $60 million guaranteed, and there just aren't guys who can do it.

And the NFL is not doing anything about the dearth of talent and coaching at this position (other than trying to suspend Tom Brady for a quarter of the season), but it is placing more emphasis on the position by turning itself into a passing league.

When Peyton Manning retires, the NFL ought to hire him and someone like Bill Polian to build a QB Development Academy.

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Its not that easy to "choose" the style of QB you'd like to build around is all I'm saying. There are generally less than 20 worth their salt in the NFL and all the talk is that we are about to hit a drought when it comes to good QB prospects due to them not being taught reads and snapping from under center in college(its been headed that way, but its getting more drastic). Its basically a battle of the 15-20 teams that have a QB every year, with the teams that draft the best likely to come out on top. Yah, if you get Rodgers or Brady you have a huge edge, but sometimes you simply don't have the luxury of adding one of the(arguably) top 2-5 QBs of all time.

I never said it was easy to choose, I just said IF I had the choice. Contrary to popular opinion I would actually prefer more of a "game manager" type...someone akin to Philip Rivers.

Again, I don't think Stafford is one of the major issues on this team...I'm not a huge fan but I'm also not a "hater." My hate has always been geared towards the front office. I feel like sometimes because I am one of the most critical Lions fans that I automatically also must hate Stafford, really not the case.

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