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Shinma

10/25/15. Vikings at Lions. Week 7, FOX, 1:05pm.

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This is so true, and I find it astounding. Here is a line of work where teams are begging to find someone they can sign a $120 million contract with, $60 million guaranteed, and there just aren't guys who can do it.

And the NFL is not doing anything about the dearth of talent and coaching at this position (other than trying to suspend Tom Brady for a quarter of the season), but it is placing more emphasis on the position by turning itself into a passing league.

When Peyton Manning retires, the NFL ought to hire him and someone like Bill Polian to build a QB Development Academy.

I agree with you about the position. But as great as Peyton is, he can't play under center either. I hope he is a coach one day though. I'd give him the Lions job right now.

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I think this is all fair. I don't consider myself a Stafford hater at all. He isn't the style of QB I would choose to build a franchise around but I also don't disagree that having an average to possibly above average "gun slinging" QB can win you a championship. My greater concern on the team is the lack of depth across the board which is a result of poor drafting. It's a big concern of mine that every year we will (seemingly) have to fill major holes with FA acquisitions.

Agreed. Time for Mayhew to go.

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I never said it was easy to choose, I just said IF I had the choice. Contrary to popular opinion I would actually prefer more of a "game manager" type...someone akin to Philip Rivers.

Again, I don't think Stafford is one of the major issues on this team...I'm not a huge fan but I'm also not a "hater." My hate has always been geared towards the front office. I feel like sometimes because I am one of the most critical Lions fans that I automatically also must hate Stafford, really not the case.

Lol, what popular opinion is that?

Not sure I'd call Rivers that, but he's a damn good QB either way. I think most would choose Rivers over Stafford though. I'd love to have Rodgers while we're at it.

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Game manager is often seen as a negative term, here is a quote from an article on game manager QBs (primarily Russell Wilson):

The term "game manager" gets thrown around a lot and that's fine, I guess, except that everyone has a different definition or interpretation its meaning. In most cases, it's a pejorative descriptor, but that's not universal, so first let me give you my definition.

I would agree that Rivers is on the cusp, he throws the ball considerably less than Stafford, prior to this year and last year he had attempted deep passes, and doesn't make nearly as many mistakes. If you have a problem with that particular suggestion there are others like Wilson (who is more of a running QB to be fair), Alex Smith, or Derek Carr would all be QBs I wouldn't mind having over Stafford. Guys like Dalton, Palmer, and Bridgewater are toss-ups, they still turn the ball over too often.

But again, I'm more so talking about the style of QB and not necessarily the actual player. If I had a choice of a non-elite QB, I would choose one who is required to do less, can make accurate throws, read the field well, keep the chains moving, and not turn the ball over even if that comes at the expense of home-run type plays. Stafford is, by and large, the antithesis of that...he often is off target in the short and mid throws but then can make big plays down the field to Calvin. I think the former is more conducive to long-term success.

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EchO This Offensive line has been a Joke.... Absolute joke...

Other QBs have been sacked more than Stafford yes but Sunday was one of the worst performances I've ever seen in a O Line...

How many other times have you seen multiple defenders rushing the QB untouched...

Garbage. I've said it before Stafford isn't the problem. Need to Build a O Line and a capable coaching staff before we worry about replacing the QB.

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I actually don't think the talent on the OL is even the problem. Its not some elite unit that couldn't stand improvement and I"m not completely sold on guys like Swanson and Waddle, but IMO coaching/scheme and health have been bigger issues. Particularly the former. We can nitpick each individual player(other than Warford IMO), but OLs with much less talent perform in this league. Something bigger is going on if you ask me.

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EchO This Offensive line has been a Joke.... Absolute joke...

Other QBs have been sacked more than Stafford yes but Sunday was one of the worst performances I've ever seen in a O Line...

How many other times have you seen multiple defenders rushing the QB untouched...

Garbage. I've said it before Stafford isn't the problem. Need to Build a O Line and a capable coaching staff before we worry about replacing the QB.

I never said the OL has been good, I said in the bottom third so you won't get much disagreement there.

But one thing I don't quite understand is that why does it matter how the defenders get to the quarterback (touched vs. untouched)...I think it could be argued that it is even more damning to get consistently beat at a physical level as opposed to missing an assignment.

And the last time I saw (personally, since I don't watch every snap of every game) was the week 4 game against the Seahawks when we absolutely abused Seattle's worst ranked pass rush OL for 6 sacks and countless scrambles.

f2ea4bc52a32ce137208adf562929cb3_original.jpg?1444934152

We consistently had rushes like this.

On top of Russell Wilson having to scramble like this...

https://twitter.com/NFL/status/651226484175011840?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Wilson was sacked 6 times that game and is on pace for the top 5 most sacks in the history of the league.

The Lions OL had an awful game last week, but one game where they suffered from multiple blown assignments doesn't automatically place them as the worst OL in the league, that is just simply not how these things work. That is like saying Stafford is an absolute joke because he got benched for Danny O after throwing 3 picks and generally playing poorly against the Cardinals.

But, to get back on the point, I never suggested having to replace the QB as a major concern. The closest to that was saying I was a fan of Jacoby Brissett if he fell to the third round, even then I would want him to sit and learn the first year or two until we can get rid of Stafford without a huge cap hit.

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I actually don't think the talent on the OL is even the problem. Its not some elite unit that couldn't stand improvement and I"m not completely sold on guys like Swanson and Waddle, but IMO coaching/scheme and health have been bigger issues. Particularly the former. We can nitpick each individual player(other than Warford IMO), but OLs with much less talent perform in this league. Something bigger is going on if you ask me.

I agree with this. I think the last thing we should do is spend more valuable resources on the OL after we just spent two first round picks and two third round picks the last few years. Next year we will be coming off (presumably) a below .500 season and will need to find replacement for Mathis (who I don't trust to be effective at age 36)/a Nickle CB unless Carter or Diggs can prove effective, Ngata/DT, Jason Jones/Tapp/DE, Ihedigo who is both getting up there in age and an UFA, possibly Tulloch, Lance Moore, and another TE.

Edit:

I feel very similar to the OL as I do with Stafford; we spent so many resources on the position we need to ride this unit out; they should, considering the resources used, have the talent to succeed...the coaches need to either make it happen or lose their jobs (along with Mayhew...obviously).

Edited by EchO

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Taking snaps from under center is usually stupid, so I suspect that's a case where NFL coaches will adapt rather than dreaming that college QBs will spend more time doing it.

30+ years ago every QB was garbage and dreamed of 60% completions and 1:1 TD:INT rates, so maybe we'll just return to those glory days

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I agree with this. I think the last thing we should do is spend more valuable resources on the OL after we just spent two first round picks and two third round picks the last few years. Next year we will be coming off (presumably) a below .500 season and will need to find replacement for Mathis (who I don't trust to be effective at age 36)/a Nickle CB unless Carter or Diggs can prove effective, Ngata/DT, Jason Jones/Tapp/DE, Ihedigo who is both getting up there in age and an UFA, possibly Tulloch, Lance Moore, and another TE.

Edit:

I feel very similar to the OL as I do with Stafford; we spent so many resources on the position we need to ride this unit out; they should, considering the resources used, have the talent to succeed...the coaches need to either make it happen or lose their jobs (along with Mayhew...obviously).

I don't agree with this.

BPA, except at QB. If it's a franchise LT at our draft spot you pick him and push Reiff over to RT. I think that solves/ improves two positions. If another Suh is available at our spot, by all means get him. Bosa at our spot? Yep! All (3) of them? Well, then you have to pick the best player that helps your team, all things being equal.

CB I would wait until top of the 2nd round... Just my opinion. I would also wait on WR or RB until at least the 2nd round...

But I wouldn't pass up a franchise LT if the best DE's and DT's have already been selected, just because we've spent resources there previously...

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I don't agree with this.

BPA, except at QB. If it's a franchise LT at our draft spot you pick him and push Reiff over to RT. I think that solves/ improves two positions. If another Suh is available at our spot, by all means get him. Bosa at our spot? Yep! All (3) of them? Well, then you have to pick the best player that helps your team, all things being equal.

CB I would wait until top of the 2nd round... Just my opinion. I would also wait on WR or RB until at least the 2nd round...

But I wouldn't pass up a franchise LT if the best DE's and DT's have already been selected, just because we've spent resources there previously...

Sure, but who's the last sure thing, " franchise LT" that came out? Joe Thomas?

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Sure, but who's the last sure thing, " franchise LT" that came out? Joe Thomas?

It doesn't matter when/ who was the last franchise LT...

I'm just saying, you can't pass one up simply because we have Reiff and we've spent several high draft picks on him and LT and Warford and Swanson. If an LT is the best talent at our pick, gotta go with him.

If the talent is similar between an LT, DE, and DT... well then you gotta make a choice.

That being said... I don't know if this front office is very good at determining who the best talent is, available...

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I don't agree with this.

BPA, except at QB. If it's a franchise LT at our draft spot you pick him and push Reiff over to RT. I think that solves/ improves two positions. If another Suh is available at our spot, by all means get him. Bosa at our spot? Yep! All (3) of them? Well, then you have to pick the best player that helps your team, all things being equal.

CB I would wait until top of the 2nd round... Just my opinion. I would also wait on WR or RB until at least the 2nd round...

But I wouldn't pass up a franchise LT if the best DE's and DT's have already been selected, just because we've spent resources there previously...

I couldn't disagree with your premise more. You know who very consistently drafted "BPA"....Mayhew and Millen. It is why we drafted Ebron (a position we didn't desperately need to spend a top 10 pick on). You find guys who find need and match well with draft position. BPA was a decent option when the team was void of talent at nearly every single position, but this isn't baseball...IMO in the NFL you draft for a combo of need + value.

I would be very upset with another RB any time before the 5th round, WR also can be found in the 3rd-7th and as such we shouldn't be spending anything higher than a third unless we trade Johnson. We need to find our Stefon Diggs or even a Donte Moncrief to complete our highest cap hit WR in the league, a fairly expensive Tate, and our 10th overall selection Ebron.

But I will agree if there is an absolute can't-miss Joe Thomas type LT then sure...but outside of that we can't keep missing on picks on the OL year-in-and-year-out...it's becoming like Millen and his WR corp; at a certain point you have to go with what you have spent very valuable resources building and go down with the ship it if fails.

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I couldn't disagree with your premise more. You know who very consistently drafted "BPA"....Mayhew and Millen. It is why we drafted Ebron (a position we didn't desperately need to spend a top 10 pick on)...

So is the issue BPA?

Or is the issue that Millen and Mayhew don't know how to correctly identify BPA?

If Mayhew identified Donald, or Beckham, correctly as BPA above Ebron... doesn't then the BPA theory stand as best method?

And I do agree though, that it should be BPA modified by a teams' needs... but even with Suh & Fairley, etal, it probably still would have been the best choice selecting Donald...

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So is the issue BPA?

Or is the issue that Millen and Mayhew don't know how to correctly identify BPA?

If Mayhew identified Donald, or Beckham, correctly as BPA above Ebron... doesn't then the BPA theory stand as best method?

And I do agree though, that it should be BPA modified by a teams' needs... but even with Suh & Fairley, etal, it probably still would have been the best choice selecting Donald...

Both of those picks would have combined need and value, so it would have been fine.

We needed a DT after not picking up Fairley's option and not being in a position to keep Suh around and we needed a playmaker on the offensive side of the ball to compliment Johnson. Mayhew took Ebron because he thought he would be a better playmaker/missmatch and just failed. Considering Ebron was never seen as a traditional TE who could block at any point of his career in conjunction with us just signing Pettigrew and (at the time) having Fauria as a redzone/FD target and I think Ebron was a horrible pick in terms of need and value. Any of the WR options in the first round would have been a much better use of resources and a pick I would have understood.

Conversely, if we still had Suh and Fairley under contract I would NOT have wanted Donald even if he were the BPA. Likewise, now that we are dedicating so many resources to Johnson + Tate + Ebron as receivers, I would prefer not to target a WR in the first or second round as a 3rd WR/4th receiving option...I would prefer the front office to find someone like a Stefon Diggs or Dontre Moncreif as a complimentary receiver. That is the difference.

Edited by EchO

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So is the issue BPA?

Or is the issue that Millen and Mayhew don't know how to correctly identify BPA?

If Mayhew identified Donald, or Beckham, correctly as BPA above Ebron... doesn't then the BPA theory stand as best method?

And I do agree though, that it should be BPA modified by a teams' needs... but even with Suh & Fairley, etal, it probably still would have been the best choice selecting Donald...

Agreed. I liked the Ebron pick for a few different reasons(that I've admitted were at least partially wrong),but I always said Donald was the BPA,period. Many if not most teams probably had Ebron ahead of Beckham and Martin though.

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Both of those picks would have combined need and value, so it would have been fine.

We needed a DT after not picking up Fairley's option and not being in a position to keep Suh around and we needed a playmaker on the offensive side of the ball to compliment Johnson. Mayhew took Ebron because he thought he would be a better playmaker/missmatch and just failed. Considering Ebron was never seen as a traditional TE who could block at any point of his career in conjunction with us just signing Pettigrew and (at the time) having Fauria as a redzone/FD target and I think Ebron was a horrible pick in terms of need and value. Any of the WR options in the first round would have been a much better use of resources and a pick I would have understood.

Conversely, if we still had Suh and Fairley under contract I would NOT have wanted Donald even if he were the BPA. Likewise, now that we are dedicating so many resources to Johnson + Tate + Ebron as receivers, I would prefer not to target a WR in the first or second round as a 3rd WR/4th receiving option...I would prefer the front office to find someone like a Stefon Diggs or Dontre Moncreif as a complimentary receiver. That is the difference.

Donald has become already, arguably the 2nd best defensive player in the NFL. I simply don't think you can ever pass on that for need reasons. Needs even out, you never get back lost value though.

I wanted Diggs so bad.........

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