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GDT: #13 Northwestern at #18 Michigan 10/10/2015

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Well I certainly believe Harbaugh and his staff are better.

If M goes 10-2 or close with Brady's recruits, his stock will certainly rise, and if I'm an AD, I want him to persuade me on his strategy for finding strong O and D coordinators

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Ball State 72-34

San Diego State 25-13

Yeah, a real loser at Ball State and San Diego State.

I am not saying he is anywhere near Harbaugh, who is a top 5 coach in all of football (college or pro). What I am saying is that he was never allowed full control of the program like most other coaches. Obviously, we can see has an eye for talent and he can recruit. Brandon was constantly tinkering and even talking to his assistant coaches behind his back. Now, this is Hoke's fault too for not putting his foot down and probably agreeing to this setup before he was hired. And Hoke will get another job when he wants one and the right one comes up. Probably not a major conference (though Maryland, Rutgers or Indiana might not be out of the question), but he will coach again - it's not like the Lions where their coaches never coach again. Keep in mind, I believe he still gets paid by Michigan - and I am betting it's more than he'd make as a Head Coach somewhere else........so why hurry? Michigan's losing in the last five years was because of David Brandon, not Brady Hoke.

First of all, as already mentioned, your numbers were wrong.

Otherwise:

Brady Hoke's entire time at Michigan, he never once developed or recruited a QB who could play at Michigan. It's Jake Rudock and a Harbaugh recruit or O'Korn next year. He got nothing at the most important position.

The O-Line play was HORRENDOUS every year, it's hard for me to say how he can blame youth as an excuse after 3 seasons when the same guys are dramatically improved this year, and some of them have straight out said in interviews that this was the first year they were coached properly and actually learned technique.

Rodriguez got 3 years when he inherited an absolute mess by Lloyd Carr. It was obvious that even if he was interfered with (and he was to a way Hoke could never dream of) and left with a mess (he was) that the defense was going the wrong way and would never improve. Hoke was the same way on the other side of the ball.

Hoke had a linebacker coaching the secondary. What a surprise that that position has improved dramatically now that Harbaugh brought in assistants with great track records instead of a bunch of nobodies.

Special Teams. How many times did we see noted great coach Brady Hoke have 10 men out on the field for his 1950s caveman punting? Harbaugh bringing in John Baxter (as also mentioned in a previous post) is another one of the huge improvements this team has seen that simply wouldn't have happened if Hoke was still the coach.

And never mind that Hoke put a guy with a concussion and ankle injury back into a game for no reason and then basically just lied about the entire incident in a press conference while acting like a giant oaf.

Hoke was in no way qualified to become Michigan's head coach based off his previous record, and only got the job (when Harbaugh may well have taken it at the time!!!) because Dave Brandon is a stupid idiot. Turning it around and then saying Dave Brandon screwed him out of his opportunity is just ridiculous.

I hope Hoke gets another shot and does well, if only because outside of the Morris thing he did seem like a good guy who got loyalty from his players, but to me he's a failed Division 1 coach. I don't know why anyone would hire him, but then every retread from a top school gets hired again and again so it won't surprise me.

edit: I actually have the perfect comparison. Brady Hoke is 100% the Jim Caldwell of college football

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First of all, as already mentioned, your numbers were wrong.

Otherwise:

Brady Hoke's entire time at Michigan, he never once developed or recruited a QB who could play at Michigan. It's Jake Rudock and a Harbaugh recruit or O'Korn next year. He got nothing at the most important position.

The O-Line play was HORRENDOUS every year, it's hard for me to say how he can blame youth as an excuse after 3 seasons when the same guys are dramatically improved this year, and some of them have straight out said in interviews that this was the first year they were coached properly and actually learned technique.

Rodriguez got 3 years when he inherited an absolute mess by Lloyd Carr. It was obvious that even if he was interfered with (and he was to a way Hoke could never dream of) and left with a mess (he was) that the defense was going the wrong way and would never improve. Hoke was the same way on the other side of the ball.

Hoke had a linebacker coaching the secondary. What a surprise that that position has improved dramatically now that Harbaugh brought in assistants with great track records instead of a bunch of nobodies.

Special Teams. How many times did we see noted great coach Brady Hoke have 10 men out on the field for his 1950s caveman punting? Harbaugh bringing in John Baxter (as also mentioned in a previous post) is another one of the huge improvements this team has seen that simply wouldn't have happened if Hoke was still the coach.

And never mind that Hoke put a guy with a concussion and ankle injury back into a game for no reason and then basically just lied about the entire incident in a press conference while acting like a giant oaf.

Hoke was in no way qualified to become Michigan's head coach based off his previous record, and only got the job (when Harbaugh may well have taken it at the time!!!) because Dave Brandon is a stupid idiot. Turning it around and then saying Dave Brandon screwed him out of his opportunity is just ridiculous.

I hope Hoke gets another shot and does well, if only because outside of the Morris thing he did seem like a good guy who got loyalty from his players, but to me he's a failed Division 1 coach. I don't know why anyone would hire him, but then every retread from a top school gets hired again and again so it won't surprise me.

edit: I actually have the perfect comparison. Brady Hoke is 100% the Jim Caldwell of college football

Can't argue with much of this at all. Taking even the smallest amount of stock in what John U. Bacon--or others on the Scout pay site--it is clear that Brandon's impact on the Michigan football team was fatal. Epic micro-management, epic ego, epic failure.

I don't hold many hard feelings IRT Hoke, and I believe he's probably a really good assistant coach, but he was overmatched by the job in AA a year removed from RR's departure. Similar to the way Detroit naturally took to Leyland's gruff persona, we all wanted to love Hoke's spot-on Fred Flinstone . . . especially as beat-down RR was by the time he left. Who can forget him channeling Josh Groban at that last banquet?

At any rate, Michigan got the best possible person for the job this time around. It is almost like Hoke never even happened, but I thank him for a few decent recruiting classes none the less.

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A few takeaways from the Northwestern game:

--Lewis has restored my faith in Cass Tech products, what a complete player. As much as I like him in coverage, it is his open-field tackling that makes me love him.

--Smith is following his blocks, making cuts and punishing next-level defenders. Is Wheatley the difference? I hope Smith can give us at least a dozen solid carries against Sparty.

--The DL is severely underrated, even without Mario and Mone. It was Henry's turn to shine on Sat, NW had no answer. RJS=Mario, no dropoff.

--NW getting a reversal on the targeting penalty was absurd, Ross getting called was a direct response to that. If they don't give a penalty to either one the media is all over them; it is open season on anyone not serious about concussion management. Anyone who has played LB even at the HS level knows it is mandatory to put a lick on any receiver in your path trying to catch the ball--especially a TE. Expecting Ross to pull up in that scenario is fantasyland. Now he misses the first half of Michigan's most physical matchup of the year, arguably our best all-around LB even though he doesn't start.

--Rudock did his best Griese impersonation out there, looked the part. Hope he can do it a few more times.

--Chesson played fast, looks much better this season. Starting the game with a TD against a solid opponent is a real gut-punch.

--Drake Harris has a long, fluid stride built for downfield receiving. Maybe we'll see more of him next year when we have a QB that hopefully can stretch the field more.

--No Isaac in high-leverage situations last game was probably necessary, but if they have to hand the ball off to Higdon much next week--not good.

--Will we see more Green this week? He was really hitting the LOS with a nice burst against NW.

--Having two very good FB really helps the OL, let's hope they can rest up this week in practice. Kerridge/Houma vs Sparty LBs will be a key matchup.

--MSU is pretty banged up right now. Their starting RT is returning from injury and shifting to LT, that's kind of a big deal. Their TEs are returning from injury and their starting LT is only available in an "emergency situation" if you believe Dantonio. Their secondary has had injuries as well. Not good for a team going into what is billed as an ultra-physical game.

Watching the first half of this game was akin to watching the early 2000s Hurricanes or mid 90s Gators or early 90s Seminoles here in FL (sans throat-slashing gestures and excessive celebrations, of course). 1997 Wolverines, if you will. Michigan dominated NW in every way possible. Gang tackling, power, speed, technique, coaching and special teams on full-display. Can they sustain it through the whole year? A few years?

Edited by mickeyb105

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This has been an INCREDIBLE start. It seems like Harbaugh brings new things each week.

14-0 Michigan

I do not follow college very closely, but this was supposed to be a close game right? I did not watch it, but saw the score and was surprised.

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Moving forward and FINALLY looking to State. Every week I have felt like the other shoe is going to finally drop. That the offense will really have a bungled start, and the D will give up easy points early and we can't escape the hole.

Every single week the D has punched the opponent in the mouth, repeatedly, and the offense can putz along and ring up 14-28 first half points and the game is over. I think the D getting early stops and allowing the offense to work under little to no pressure to "come back and tie it up" is the biggest key for this team.

Score first - Michigan wins.

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First of all, as already mentioned, your numbers were wrong.

Otherwise:

Brady Hoke's entire time at Michigan, he never once developed or recruited a QB who could play at Michigan. It's Jake Rudock and a Harbaugh recruit or O'Korn next year. He got nothing at the most important position.

The O-Line play was HORRENDOUS every year, it's hard for me to say how he can blame youth as an excuse after 3 seasons when the same guys are dramatically improved this year, and some of them have straight out said in interviews that this was the first year they were coached properly and actually learned technique.

Rodriguez got 3 years when he inherited an absolute mess by Lloyd Carr. It was obvious that even if he was interfered with (and he was to a way Hoke could never dream of) and left with a mess (he was) that the defense was going the wrong way and would never improve. Hoke was the same way on the other side of the ball.

Hoke had a linebacker coaching the secondary. What a surprise that that position has improved dramatically now that Harbaugh brought in assistants with great track records instead of a bunch of nobodies.

Special Teams. How many times did we see noted great coach Brady Hoke have 10 men out on the field for his 1950s caveman punting? Harbaugh bringing in John Baxter (as also mentioned in a previous post) is another one of the huge improvements this team has seen that simply wouldn't have happened if Hoke was still the coach.

And never mind that Hoke put a guy with a concussion and ankle injury back into a game for no reason and then basically just lied about the entire incident in a press conference while acting like a giant oaf.

Hoke was in no way qualified to become Michigan's head coach based off his previous record, and only got the job (when Harbaugh may well have taken it at the time!!!) because Dave Brandon is a stupid idiot. Turning it around and then saying Dave Brandon screwed him out of his opportunity is just ridiculous.

I hope Hoke gets another shot and does well, if only because outside of the Morris thing he did seem like a good guy who got loyalty from his players, but to me he's a failed Division 1 coach. I don't know why anyone would hire him, but then every retread from a top school gets hired again and again so it won't surprise me.

edit: I actually have the perfect comparison. Brady Hoke is 100% the Jim Caldwell of college football

You are missing a lot of the back story on the Morris injury. First, by NCAA rule, coaches are not responsible for decisions on injuries. It's up to the training staff and that staff reports to the AD. There is a reason Brandon changed up things after the Morris injury, including putting spotters in the booth. Second, Brandon didn't give Hoke the updated information. He didn't lie.

As for the OL, the problem was scheme change, OC change and an empty cupboard. They were improving last season.

The defense has been good and has taken another step this season. And again, Hoke inherited little depth. That they finally have a lineup of juniors and seniors, experience and reps matter. And every coach made that comment during camp.

Anyway, Harbaugh is one of the top coaches in football. That's inarguable. He also was able to launch his Michigan coaching career from a decent platform thanks to Hoke. He would not be 5-1 if he started where Hoke started when he took the job.

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A few takeaways from the Northwestern game:

--Lewis has restored my faith in Cass Tech products, what a complete player. As much as I like him in coverage, it is his open-field tackling that makes me love him.

--Smith is following his blocks, making cuts and punishing next-level defenders. Is Wheatley the difference? I hope Smith can give us at least a dozen solid carries against Sparty.

--The DL is severely underrated, even without Mario and Mone. It was Henry's turn to shine on Sat, NW had no answer. RJS=Mario, no dropoff.

--NW getting a reversal on the targeting penalty was absurd, Ross getting called was a direct response to that. If they don't give a penalty to either one the media is all over them; it is open season on anyone not serious about concussion management. Anyone who has played LB even at the HS level knows it is mandatory to put a lick on any receiver in your path trying to catch the ball--especially a TE. Expecting Ross to pull up in that scenario is fantasyland. Now he misses the first half of Michigan's most physical matchup of the year, arguably our best all-around LB even though he doesn't start.

--Rudock did his best Griese impersonation out there, looked the part. Hope he can do it a few more times.

--Chesson played fast, looks much better this season. Starting the game with a TD against a solid opponent is a real gut-punch.

--Drake Harris has a long, fluid stride built for downfield receiving. Maybe we'll see more of him next year when we have a QB that hopefully can stretch the field more.

--No Isaac in high-leverage situations last game was probably necessary, but if they have to hand the ball off to Higdon much next week--not good.

--Will we see more Green this week? He was really hitting the LOS with a nice burst against NW.

--Having two very good FB really helps the OL, let's hope they can rest up this week in practice. Kerridge/Houma vs Sparty LBs will be a key matchup.

--MSU is pretty banged up right now. Their starting RT is returning from injury and shifting to LT, that's kind of a big deal. Their TEs are returning from injury and their starting LT is only available in an "emergency situation" if you believe Dantonio. Their secondary has had injuries as well. Not good for a team going into what is billed as an ultra-physical game.

Watching the first half of this game was akin to watching the early 2000s Hurricanes or mid 90s Gators or early 90s Seminoles here in FL (sans throat-slashing gestures and excessive celebrations, of course). 1997 Wolverines, if you will. Michigan dominated NW in every way possible. Gang tackling, power, speed, technique, coaching and special teams on full-display. Can they sustain it through the whole year? A few years?

I love your posts.

I disagree a bit about the whole targeting thing. I didn't think it was targeting on the rudock hit. And I was fairly certain it was targeting on the ross hit. You can't lower your helmet and go right into the spot where you know the other guy's head is going to be.

But I was only going by what I saw on the replay boards. I don't know the exact rules. The Ross hit just seemed clearly worse to me.

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You are missing a lot of the back story on the Morris injury. First, by NCAA rule, coaches are not responsible for decisions on injuries. It's up to the training staff and that staff reports to the AD. There is a reason Brandon changed up things after the Morris injury, including putting spotters in the booth. Second, Brandon didn't give Hoke the updated information. He didn't lie.

As for the OL, the problem was scheme change, OC change and an empty cupboard. They were improving last season.

The defense has been good and has taken another step this season. And again, Hoke inherited little depth. That they finally have a lineup of juniors and seniors, experience and reps matter. And every coach made that comment during camp.

Anyway, Harbaugh is one of the top coaches in football. That's inarguable. He also was able to launch his Michigan coaching career from a decent platform thanks to Hoke. He would not be 5-1 if he started where Hoke started when he took the job.

I will also agree that the morris incident was somewhat of a perfect storm and I don't blame hoke too much for how it went down. Mistakes were made by a lot of people. But I believe that hoke had no idea Shane was concussed. The ankle injury that also happened made it a bit unclear why he came out of the game. And then devin's helmet coming off and being told he couldn't call a timeout made it worse. I think Brady thought he was putting a guy with a bum ankle in for one play to execute a handoff.

Brady seems like a good guy. I hope he gets another shot somewhere else, even if it is as a d line coach or something.

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I think his work at Ball State and SDSU, while not necessarily elite, show that Hoke would be a very good coach for any non power conference team and most middling or lower power conference teams.

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You are missing a lot of the back story on the Morris injury. First, by NCAA rule, coaches are not responsible for decisions on injuries. It's up to the training staff and that staff reports to the AD. There is a reason Brandon changed up things after the Morris injury, including putting spotters in the booth. Second, Brandon didn't give Hoke the updated information. He didn't lie.

As for the OL, the problem was scheme change, OC change and an empty cupboard. They were improving last season.

The defense has been good and has taken another step this season. And again, Hoke inherited little depth. That they finally have a lineup of juniors and seniors, experience and reps matter. And every coach made that comment during camp.

Anyway, Harbaugh is one of the top coaches in football. That's inarguable. He also was able to launch his Michigan coaching career from a decent platform thanks to Hoke. He would not be 5-1 if he started where Hoke started when he took the job.

I'm pretty sure Harbaugh would be, considering Hoke went 10-2 his first year with a bunch of Rich Rodriguez recruits :)

The idea that the head coach shouldn't be aware that his QB has a scrambled brain because it wasn't officially his job is just ridiculous to me. If he honestly didn't know what happened (and still didn't, hours later when he gave his bungled press conference) then he was merely horribly incompetent rather than malicious. Not a great win either way.

Good coaches produce, bad coaches don't. It's that simple to me. Rich Rodriguez couldn't coach defense, but his offense still had some of the best rushing attacks in recent Michigan history (even the year Nick Sheridan was QB) because he could coach offense. Too bad he couldn't coach defense. Brady Hoke did have a decent defense, but it seems clear to me that he can't coach offense. Fortunately, Michigan now has a coach who is good on both sides of the ball.

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The Brady Hoke discussion is really putting a damper on the Harbaugh National Champ hype train conversation we should be having.

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MSU slappies on Red Cedar are already saying incredible things, like "better to just kick it out of bounds on all the kickoffs" then give us a chance to return it.

They are also supremely confident that our offense won't be able to do anything against their D. Um....how do they explain Maryland and Rutgers absolutely gashing them? If Michigan is allowed to put up even half that many points, we win by a landslide.

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The Brady Hoke discussion is really putting a damper on the Harbaugh National Champ hype train conversation we should be having.

Seriously.

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MSU slappies on Red Cedar are already saying incredible things, like "better to just kick it out of bounds on all the kickoffs" then give us a chance to return it.

They are also supremely confident that our offense won't be able to do anything against their D. Um....how do they explain Maryland and Rutgers absolutely gashing them? If Michigan is allowed to put up even half that many points, we win by a landslide.

The thing to be concerned about MSU (and OSU) despite them struggling so far, is they and their players still have the pedigree/confidence from winning last season. And you know they will be up for the game and will be calling back on that experience.

Make no mistake, they will play their best game to date, and I think it's hard to say how good that will be.

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The thing to be concerned about MSU (and OSU) despite them struggling so far, is they and their players still have the pedigree/confidence from winning last season. And you know they will be up for the game and will be calling back on that experience.

Make no mistake, they will play their best game to date, and I think it's hard to say how good that will be.

I agree. I am only deathly afraid of getting down early. If the early breaks go our way, there's no stopping us.

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This is just a completely different Michigan team than we have seen in a while. They have the big bodies to play a power run game, and at this point it seems like the line and backs know what they are doing.

In years past, MSU could rely on their big guys up front and skilled LBs and fill the holes created by our line, and our backs and line just didn't have the ability to pick up yards that way. That isn't the case anymore and I think state fans will be surprised when the offense is simply competent, because it's been a long time since it has been.

In the past, they could create 2nd and 12 or 3rd and long by just stacking the box. That won't happen this year. It becomes 2nd and 7 and 3rd and 3. And we have a QB now that can make the simple throws, and he won't be running for his life.

We will get our points this year.

The question will come down to whether MSU can play a solid offensive game against our defense. I love the shutout streak we have going and it's fun and all, but we haven't played a guy like cook yet in any of these blowout wins. If the D line can get to him and rush him, we will be in good shape. But he's good enough to salvage a fair number of third downs and keep some drives alive, and hit a few deep balls, that I won't be surprised if both teams score in the 20s.

Still, given everything we have seen to date, there isn't much to suggest that MSU should be confident about their chances in this game, aside from putting stock into the last couple years and the way MSU manhandled us. But those years are in the past, and that defense of theirs is gone (as well as the better than advertised offense). They are a solid team and likely will be for the foreseeable future. But they look an awful lot like one of those nondescript 9-3 type teams that beats the non conference types, loses to the two good conference teams on the schedule, and drops another one to a mediocre team on the road.

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Another interesting thing to consider is that Jim has SHUT IT DOWN after halftime in every single game since Oregon State.

If this game is close in the 2nd half, I'll be very interested to see how M plays if Jim is working hard to keep putting points on the board.

Edit: well, I suppose the offense was still pushing it in the Maryland 2nd half, but otherwise...

Edited by jackson_cannery

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True ^^ There have been a few people now, football people, who have suggested that we haven't even seen anything yet in the Michigan offensive playbook. This could be the week we all finally learn to sit back and trust.

JH has "thrown in wrinkles", but I think this week we see almost the entire offense on display. I believe we will enjoy it like we have the first 6 weeks.

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I'm pretty sure Harbaugh would be, considering Hoke went 10-2 his first year with a bunch of Rich Rodriguez recruits :)

The idea that the head coach shouldn't be aware that his QB has a scrambled brain because it wasn't officially his job is just ridiculous to me. If he honestly didn't know what happened (and still didn't, hours later when he gave his bungled press conference) then he was merely horribly incompetent rather than malicious. Not a great win either way.

Good coaches produce, bad coaches don't. It's that simple to me. Rich Rodriguez couldn't coach defense, but his offense still had some of the best rushing attacks in recent Michigan history (even the year Nick Sheridan was QB) because he could coach offense. Too bad he couldn't coach defense. Brady Hoke did have a decent defense, but it seems clear to me that he can't coach offense. Fortunately, Michigan now has a coach who is good on both sides of the ball.

Ha, ha on Hoke's first year. You're right but even then it was the defense, led by Carr recruits. Year 2 and 3 would have been tough though. I just give Hoke credit for the roster he put together and the defense (and graduation rates). Nothing more or less. Heck I've even seen Brian over at MGoBlog acknowledge Hoke's DL coaching and recruiting these last few weeks.

I actually think the concussion question is interesting. I would be curious to know how many programs used spotters in the booth prior to and after that game. You usually think that kind of impact would put a player down and get an official timeout. Since coaches can't follow all 11 players so the booth spotter would seem to be mandatory to address these situations.

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The Brady Hoke discussion is really putting a damper on the Harbaugh National Champ hype train conversation we should be having.

Point taken.

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....

The question will come down to whether MSU can play a solid offensive game against our defense. I love the shutout streak we have going and it's fun and all, but we haven't played a guy like cook yet in any of these blowout wins. If the D line can get to him and rush him, we will be in good shape. But he's good enough to salvage a fair number of third downs and keep some drives alive, and hit a few deep balls, that I won't be surprised if both teams score in the 20s.

....

agreed. - we are going to find out how good Lewis and Peppers are. If they shut down their guys, M wins.

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Ha, ha on Hoke's first year. You're right but even then it was the defense, led by Carr recruits. Year 2 and 3 would have been tough though. I just give Hoke credit for the roster he put together and the defense (and graduation rates). Nothing more or less. Heck I've even seen Brian over at MGoBlog acknowledge Hoke's DL coaching and recruiting these last few weeks.

I actually think the concussion question is interesting. I would be curious to know how many programs used spotters in the booth prior to and after that game. You usually think that kind of impact would put a player down and get an official timeout. Since coaches can't follow all 11 players so the booth spotter would seem to be mandatory to address these situations.

Teams have guys in the booths and they have the game feed on as well. On the Morris hit someone saw what was going on, but there was no protocol to report what they were seeing. Hoke didn't wear a head seat anyway.

Teams just need to have a plan in place so when a coach up stairs, on the sidelines, or a player even, sees something they report it and the player is removed from the game and checked out. It would also help to not lie about it in the press conference.

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