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2015 Off-season thread

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Well, if the Tigers didn't do their medical homework on him, shame on them. But I'll still wait to see the walk rate go down before I blame the virus for his problems.

I'm sure the Tigers were aware of the medical reports. Sounds like s fluff piece trying to give hope that Al's bad year was a fluke. He hasn't exactly lit it up this spring thus far even with the improved health.

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I will never understand the media narrative early in the spring and in the offseason about fulmer being a bullpen candidate, even if the team was saying it was a possibility.

I guess I don't quite understand it either. There weren't any questions about stamina or the lack of an adequate 3rd pitch which might lead to demotion from starter to reliever. I realize the bullpen needed help, but you don't address that need at the expense of Fulmer's development.

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On 3/10/2016 at 10:44 AM, Casimir said:

I guess I don't quite understand it either. There weren't any questions about stamina or the lack of an adequate 3rd pitch which might lead to demotion from starter to reliever. I realize the bullpen needed help, but you don't address that need at the expense of Fulmer's development.

Quite simply, many believe this is a myth. The Cardinals, probalby the best run organization in baseball, have done this with multiple top pitching prospects, with large success to show for it both short and long term. 

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On 3/10/2016 at 10:44 AM, Casimir said:

I guess I don't quite understand it either. There weren't any questions about stamina or the lack of an adequate 3rd pitch which might lead to demotion from starter to reliever. I realize the bullpen needed help, but you don't address that need at the expense of Fulmer's development.

Plenty of great starting pitchers spent time in the bullpen early in their careers. It's a good way to help limit innings and break them in against major league hitters. Combined with the fact that the bullpen was horrible last year, it shouldn't be a big surprise that the media discussed it. I don't think anyone was campaigning heavily for it or anything. They needed things to write about. Luckily the bp should be much better this year so it was a bit of a long shot to begin with. 

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Plenty of great starting pitchers spent time in the bullpen early in their careers. It's a good way to help limit innings and break them in against major league hitters. Combined with the fact that the bullpen was horrible last year, it shouldn't be a big surprise that the media discussed it. I don't think anyone was campaigning heavily for it or anything. They needed things to write about. Luckily the bp should be much better this year so it was a bit of a long shot to begin with. 

It's a good way to limit innings and get major league experience. But I'd prefer he build up his innings in the minors.

That's not to say that a midseason promotion wouldn't be a bad thing.

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

It's a good way to limit innings and get major league experience. But I'd prefer he build up his innings in the minors.

That's not to say that a midseason promotion wouldn't be a bad thing.

The problem is, last year he threw 124 innings. This yeah he should be good for 164+/-. Not much more, not much less. If they call him up mid-season, they'll have to shut him down in September if he's a starter. Or they can put him in the BP, if they need help there, and he'll be ok throughout the season, and post-season if they make it. 

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The problem is, last year he threw 124 innings. This yeah he should be good for 164+/-. Not much more, not much less. If they call him up mid-season, they'll have to shut him down in September if he's a starter. Or they can put him in the BP, if they need help there, and he'll be ok throughout the season, and post-season if they make it. 

If the target is 164, he could start about 20 games in AAA and then be used in the bullpen in Detroit sometime around the trade deadline. I guess it depends upon how much they use him out of the pen. An inning at a time? Even if he were solely a starter, he's probably looking at about 27 starts at 6 innings per. In a 144 game AAA season, he'd be skipped a few times.

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13 hours ago, Casimir said:

If the target is 164, he could start about 20 games in AAA and then be used in the bullpen in Detroit sometime around the trade deadline. I guess it depends upon how much they use him out of the pen. An inning at a time? Even if he were solely a starter, he's probably looking at about 27 starts at 6 innings per. In a 144 game AAA season, he'd be skipped a few times.

This is the way I think he will be used if all goes well.  Gets him the innings he needs to build up, gives him Major League experience, and hopefully gives us a power arm in the bullpen for the last 3rd of the season/post season.

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Assuming all goes well, I'd like to see Fulmer get ~120 IP in Toledo as a starter and then spend Aug/Sept as a reliever in Detroit.

 

That will keep him from being overworked while getting his feet wet in the show, helping the team down the stretch.

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2 hours ago, Yoda said:

Assuming all goes well, I'd like to see Fulmer get ~120 IP in Toledo as a starter and then spend Aug/Sept as a reliever in Detroit.

 

That will keep him from being overworked while getting his feet wet in the show, helping the team down the stretch.

I like this way of handling Fulmer.  I may have not been clear before.  My concern of Fulmer to the bullpen had more to do with beginning the season in the bullpen rather than ending the season there.

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so in the Washington game today, Tigers let a guy go 1st to 3rd on a ground ball to 2nd. The Tigers had shifted but the H&R was on so the runner had a clear run to 3rd before anyone covered. So OK, somebody screwed up right? Well not really. According to Gino they just hadn't thought about the possibility of a H&R  when they were shifted. The hadn't worked out who was supposed to cover what.

Quote

“That’s probably going to have to be the catcher (who covers third),” said Gene Lamont, who managed the Tigers’ split-squad team Sunday. “As a pitcher, you don’t necessarily know the guy is running. We’ve worked on stuff like that, but this one hadn’t come up in a game.

“We talked about when he steals, but we really haven’t talked about when he steals and the ball is hit. I wrote it down and we’ll talk to Brad about it and the team about it tomorrow.”

So all those years of experience on this coaching staff and they forget an obvious possibility in their game-planning as they design their shifts? Gino seems to saying they aren't smart enough to plan for a possibility until they actually see it happen.  Does makes you wonder.

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Or he is just saying that to help save the face of the player(s) at fault.

along that line, JV took responsibility saying that it was his play and that he was late to realize it, but Geno absolved him in his comments, saying that he thought that having the pitcher cover wasn't going to work because the pitcher had no way to know the runner was going (and thus would realize he had to cover too late - just as JV did))  and that the staff was going to have to revisit the scheme again.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I've participated in things like HAZOP analysis processes where a whole staff of people who should know better have missed obvious stuff. It's still funny when it happens though - as long there weren't any consequences......

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The other thing to consider in spring training is in a typical game situation about half the players on the field aren't going to be there in June.

My guess of it (and it is purely a guess) is they work on these things in the back fields but don't sweat it too much if it doesn't manifest itself into the right play in the first half of spring training given the personnel involved.

The coaches know these are professional players, they are going to get it right by and large when it does matter, and calling them out in the media at this point in time isn't likely to pay positive dividends in the long run.  Just pull the guy(s) off to the side and have a 5 minute discussion privately and you get your point across and they feel you have their back in the paper.  Leyland used to handle it this way and Gene is basically Jim-light.

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I could easily see them DL'ing Sanchez until the 5th game and giving that spot to Holaday. By then it may be easier to slip Holaday through waivers. 

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7 minutes ago, Yoda said:

I could easily see them DL'ing Sanchez until the 5th game and giving that spot to Holaday. By then it may be easier to slip Holaday through waivers. 

I looked up the rules to this last night (thinking of Victor) and you can make the date retroactive to 9 days before opening day. If that means MLB opening day, he could start game 5. If that means Tigers opening day, it'd be game 6.

Sanchez seemed great today tho so I don't think there'll be much grounds for him to be 'injured.'

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1 hour ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I looked up the rules to this last night (thinking of Victor) and you can make the date retroactive to 9 days before opening day. If that means MLB opening day, he could start game 5. If that means Tigers opening day, it'd be game 6.

Sanchez seemed great today tho so I don't think there'll be much grounds for him to be 'injured.'

Is MLB opening day still Sunday, and does that day count? If so:

sunday off

monday off

tuesday NL Miami 

wednesday NL Miami 

thursday off

friday Yankees 

 

would a DL player be able to return Saturday?

edit: I'm talking about victor

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Saw a blurb about Daniel Norris needing to step it up. I haven't been following spring that closely, but it seems like Greene has been doing well. 

My guess is that Norris starts in Toledo. That's going to be such a nice luxury. When was the last time the Tigers had a legit pitching prospect in AAA?

verlander and zumaya made the jump from AA. Porcello from A ball. Did turner pitch in Toledo?

this year we could have both Norris and Fulmer. 

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Yeah I was thinking about that - Norris, Fulmer and Boyd at the top of the Toledo rotation.  I don't think that that has happened in our lifetimes.

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so with Norris' back recurring, Greene pitching well and Sanchez temporarily healthy - the starting rotation is now pretty well clarified as:

Verlander, Sanchez, Zimmerman, Pelfrey, Greene.

Compare that to 2015 opening day rotation of:

Price, Sanchez, Greene, Simon, Lobstien

A healthy Verlander =equivalent to Price:  wash

Sanchez = Sanchez: wash

Greene=Greene: huge plus if healthy Greene pitches like April 2015 Greene for a full season.

Zimmerman >> Simon:  Should maybe add another whole line of ">>". Big plus

Pelfrey >> Lobstein: Spring training WHIP of 0.85 vs guy who was DFA'd. maybe the biggest upgrade

 

and:

2016 potential 6th starter: Norris/Boyd/Fulmer

2015 potential 6th starter: Farmer/Ryan?

Are we all feeling better yet?

 

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I am, the Tigers are deeper, and better overall.  Better bullpen.

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The pitching staff depth is much, much better.  Really pleased with the available options.  I am less pessimistic about Pelfrey's contract than I was at the signing.  It sounds like Greene has been throwing well.  I thought we would see Verlander continue off of his second half and I believe that will come through.  If Sanchez can contribute 180 healthy innings each, I think there are enough parts and pieces available at the 6th and 7th SP depth spots.

The bullpen looks better now than what we saw last season, but I think there are still some question marks.

The lineup probably is a wash from the beginning of last season with the gives and takes.  There are better AAAA type options available if injuries dictate, but hopefully we won't see too much of that.

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