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The OL problems - Scott Linehan question

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I don't want to over react too much here... it's only one game into 2015 after all. But the OL looked just piss poor yesterday.

No, it wasn't the only problem. Stafford made mistakes, the WR didn't always do a good job. The DL wasn't getting much pressure, and the secondary was torched. But the OL stood out to me. I know they were missing some key guys on the line, but still it just fell apart repeatedly.

I watched just a little bit of the Dallas game last night, but the commentators did mentioned about how strong the Cowboy's OL looked. It got me to thinking: How much of the great 2013 OL play should be credited to Linehan? Obviously there's lots and lots of variables, but 2013 Lions with Linehan: Great OL. 2014 Lions without Linehan: Terrible OL. 2014 Cowboys with Linehan: Great OL.

If I recall correctly, didn't we retain our OL coach from the Schwartz era? Washburn the younger, isn't it? Now I know Lombardi will have his own scheme and that you can't just pickup an OL playbook from a totally different scheme and drop it into Lombardi's... but at the same time you'd think Lombardi would want to heavily pick Washburn's brain to figure out what made the 2013 OL so good.

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I don't want to over react too much here... it's only one game into 2015 after all. But the OL looked just piss poor yesterday.

No, it wasn't the only problem. Stafford made mistakes, the WR didn't always do a good job. The DL wasn't getting much pressure, and the secondary was torched. But the OL stood out to me. I know they were missing some key guys on the line, but still it just fell apart repeatedly.

I watched just a little bit of the Dallas game last night, but the commentators did mentioned about how strong the Cowboy's OL looked. It got me to thinking: How much of the great 2013 OL play should be credited to Linehan? Obviously there's lots and lots of variables, but 2013 Lions with Linehan: Great OL. 2014 Lions without Linehan: Terrible OL. 2014 Cowboys with Linehan: Great OL.

If I recall correctly, didn't we retain our OL coach from the Schwartz era? Washburn the younger, isn't it? Now I know Lombardi will have his own scheme and that you can't just pickup an OL playbook from a totally different scheme and drop it into Lombardi's... but at the same time you'd think Lombardi would want to heavily pick Washburn's brain to figure out what made the 2013 OL so good.

I was watching the Cowboy miracle win last night wondering why we didn't keep Linehan. Lombardi has a fancy name and had some success in New Orleans but isn't helping the Lions much. Really terrible play calling, IMO. And our lines, both on D and O are very weak. Can they improve? Probably not. They are what they are and losing quality players without replacing them is never a good recipe for success.

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I was watching the Cowboy miracle win last night wondering why we didn't keep Linehan. Lombardi has a fancy name and had some success in New Orleans but isn't helping the Lions much. Really terrible play calling, IMO. And our lines, both on D and O are very weak. Can they improve? Probably not. They are what they are and losing quality players without replacing them is never a good recipe for success.

No, keeping Linehan as OC was not the answer. His play calling was pretty crappy too. Way to conservative and predictable in my opinion. But whatever he did scheme-wise made the OL really good in 2013 and when he left, it got really bad in 2014.

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I don't want to over react too much here... it's only one game into 2015 after all. But the OL looked just piss poor yesterday.

No, it wasn't the only problem. Stafford made mistakes, the WR didn't always do a good job. The DL wasn't getting much pressure, and the secondary was torched. But the OL stood out to me. I know they were missing some key guys on the line, but still it just fell apart repeatedly.

I watched just a little bit of the Dallas game last night, but the commentators did mentioned about how strong the Cowboy's OL looked. It got me to thinking: How much of the great 2013 OL play should be credited to Linehan? Obviously there's lots and lots of variables, but 2013 Lions with Linehan: Great OL. 2014 Lions without Linehan: Terrible OL. 2014 Cowboys with Linehan: Great OL.

If I recall correctly, didn't we retain our OL coach from the Schwartz era? Washburn the younger, isn't it? Now I know Lombardi will have his own scheme and that you can't just pickup an OL playbook from a totally different scheme and drop it into Lombardi's... but at the same time you'd think Lombardi would want to heavily pick Washburn's brain to figure out what made the 2013 OL so good.

Probably more of a talent issue with 2 of our top 3 lineman out and Dallas having 3 first rounders on their OL(plus La'el Collins now).

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No, keeping Linehan as OC was not the answer. His play calling was pretty crappy too. Way to conservative and predictable in my opinion. But whatever he did scheme-wise made the OL really good in 2013 and when he left, it got really bad in 2014.

Hard for me to wrap my head around this though considering how productive our offense was compared to our weapons.

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The stupid Giants were the reason for the Cowboys miracle win.

This.

Giants could have ran the clock twice and didn't.

Once they snapped it with about 15 seconds on it and the other time they threw an incompletion. Very, very stupid ball management.

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Also, as bad as the offense looked in the 2nd half .. the defense didn't do us any favors either. San Diego went to a much more hurry up offense & just mowed through us. I'm really surprised the Lions didn't try this at some point.

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To me this is the issues with the Lions for as long as I have paid attention to the Lions. When Barry Sanders was here the online sucked, when Hermon moore and company were here the Line sucked, when Joe Harrington was here the line sucked. Now we have Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate and running backs the Line sucks. In the end teams with offensive lines win superbowls and teams like the lions are the punch lines of loser jokes. Final illustration Peyton Manning last year set the world on fire this year not doing as well because the o-line. Until the Lions as an organization build the Offensive line they will always be losers.

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Joe Lombardi is making Scott Linehan look like a genius right now. Perhaps Lombardi is one of those guys who has a system that's so complicated that it's very difficult to implement successfully.

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Joe Lombardi is making Scott Linehan look like a genius right now. Perhaps Lombardi is one of those guys who has a system that's so complicated that it's very difficult to implement successfully.

Agreed. Though to be fair to Lombardi, his OL this season includes rookie, a new center (with limited prior experience) and a backup.

If Stafford stays healthy long enough, the OL will develop as a unit, and make it possible for the offense to be more productive.

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Agreed. Though to be fair to Lombardi, his OL this season includes rookie, a new center (with limited prior experience) and a backup.

If Stafford stays healthy long enough, the OL will develop as a unit, and make it possible for the offense to be more productive.

So we have seen coordinators come and go, and do better in other places, QBs come and go, offensive 'weapons' have been signed and fizzled, head coaches have come and go, and yet, the one constant since Fontes and Barry left the scene is that the Lion O Line can't block and can't protect. A decade of making do with a mediocre left tackle, a decade of making do with an undersized center. Yesterday a UDA playing left tackle that almost got his QB's head taken off at least twice. The damn Vikings D line would have been justified in applying for a change of address to the Lion's backfield.

What is the real common denominator here? I spent the ride home listening to sports talk rail against Stafford, Calvin, Belle, Ebron,,,. Those guys may all be bad, but we will never know for sure because our lineman cannot block anyone. Can we maybe for once in 50 yrs fix that first?

(OK, "for only the 2nd time in 50yrs")

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Both Lombardi and Caldwell are on their way to being Lionized. Only a matter of time before Lombardi is cruising through Wendy's drive-thru naked

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Heard the radio on the way back from lunch. Last lion probowler on the O line: Glover. 1997

I agree that the lions havent had a lot of talented olineman over the years (or other positions), but pro bowls is a dumb way to judge players. For example, larry warford should have been a pro bowl guard his rookie year but they gave it to kyle long because his last name is long and he plays for the bears.

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The OL has nothing to do with Linehan. They have pretty much the same coach as they did then.

When a group has one good year out of 20 in a series, wouldn't the sounder conclusion be that you witnessed a fluke based on some good luck and favorable match-ups?

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When a group has one good year out of 20 in a series, wouldn't the sounder conclusion be that you witnessed a fluke based on some good luck and favorable match-ups?

No, I think right now they aren't as healthy as they would like. As an example, Riley Rieff has been terrible these past two games, but in the past he had been solid. I don't know if something is wrong there. They have also faced a couple of tough defenses. It won't get any easier, either. The next three games are huge challenges. I would be shocked if they won either of the three right now.

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The OL has nothing to do with Linehan. They have pretty much the same coach as they did then.

Yeah but...

Okay, I know Linehan wasn't responsible for the OL directly, but he's the OC, so what he wants filters down. He wants blocks a certain way, then the OL coach is going to setup blocks that way. There's obviously some back-and-forth here with the OL coach making recommendations or doing tweaks to get the OL to do what the OC wants... but in the end, the OL will operate how the OC wants them to operate.

So yeah, Linehan wasn't directly coaching the OL, but he was absolutely indirectly responsible for it operating the way it did.

Besides that, we have evidence of a steep drop off in OL production the year after Linehan left AND we hear rave reviews of the Dallas OL now that Linehan is there. These seems to support the idea that Linehan had at least something to do with making the OL the success that it was in 2013.

Of course, we do need to temper this with the fact that prior to 2013, the Lions OL wasn't anything to write home about. It wasn't the trash that we saw in the Vikings game, but it wasn't a high class unit either. So perhaps 2013 was more a fluke?

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When a group has one good year out of 20 in a series, wouldn't the sounder conclusion be that you witnessed a fluke based on some good luck and favorable match-ups?

Yes... that's a logical conclusion and I'm not saying it's completely incorrect. But as I said in my reply to Cruzer, you do have some other evidence:

> Prior to 2013, the OL was average, maybe a bit below average.

> 2013, the OL was very good.

> Post 2013, the OL was crap and getting worse, not better.

> Post 2013 in Dallas, the OL gets rave reviews.

The fact that the OL dropped to MUCH WORSE than it was prior to 2013 after Linehan left combined with the success that Linehan's new team is having in the OL position makes me think that a Linehan deserves at least some level of credit for the success that the OL had in 2013.

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