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Why not hire Gardenhire?

Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      12
    • Only if all better options are exhausted (explain)
      10


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Hasn't base running been a long standing issue with the Tigers, second only to the bullpen?

The play the other night where Clark was holding JDMartinez while standing a few steps off of the foul line and got looped to the outside by a stopping and then restarting JDMartinez and eventually scored while McCann got into a run down was just amazingly bizarre to see.

Yes, but it can be tempered. Brad came here determined to be aggressive on the bases. It was immediately clear that he didn't have the personnel to play that style of game, yet here we are almost two full seasons later still playing that way.

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In summary, my positions are:

a. not interested in Gardenhire as a a manager, but it likely doesn't matter much,

b. I have no confidence in Ausmus as a manager and think he managed his bullpen horribly, but the much bigger problem is the pitchers.

I agree with a.

I probably have more optimism in Ausmus as a manager if he is willing to learn from his mistakes this season. I am probably 50/50 on whether he should be fired or not. I honestly don't know anything about what goes on inside the clubhouse, or pregame preparations, or mostly anything that we don't see within the game.

I am interested in the Tigers acquiring a manager that isn't afraid to mix up the bullpen usage more by using high leverage guys in high leverage situations. I doubt that that candidate exists, however.

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Wilson pitched in 53 games this year. 28 times he came in with the Tigers LOSING. Over half. You can't tell me Brad had nobody to turn to. How many times was a reliever struggling and Brad just left him out there to blow the lead before calling on Wilson?

Terrible management and it absolutely led to a lot of the pitchers' inflated numbers.

That is my position as well.

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One thing about this Gardenhire rumor....if it turns out to be true, Avila needs to find the "inside source" and fire his or her ***.

I don't like Ausmus, but that is pretty ****** if someone is going around bragging that they have already gotten Gardenhire in the bag.

You treat people better than that, even if you're about to fire them.

I would guess the source is associated with the ilitches and not the front office.

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I probably have more optimism in Ausmus as a manager if he is willing to learn from his mistakes this season.

I have no expectation that Ausmus would change significantly as a manager.

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I would guess the source is associated with the ilitches and not the front office.

The random Bluth like siblings of the Illitches definitely give me pause

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I have no expectation that Ausmus would change significantly as a manager.

I can understand this. I don't expect that he will automatically improve next season, but I think getting teeth kicked in this season might necessitate a change in one's approach to the game next season.

I am more interested in changing the pitching staff than I am changing the manager. Both aspects can be changed, that's fine by me. But the pitching has to change in order for the Tigers to have a competitive 2016.

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I would guess the source is associated with the ilitches and not the front office.

Maybe it's the Ilitch kid who is/was on drugs and they supply him smack.....

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The Tigers ERA+ is 85.

Even with great bullpen usage I doubt their ERA+ gets north of 87/88.

Not nearly good enough to contend.

This is my view as well. They were going to give up an embarrassing number of runs this year regardless of bullpen management. I can't see how any manager was going to turn this staff into something less than horrible.

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Let's take it a step further.

Hardy: pitched 62 games, 34 while losing

Their two best relievers pitched most of their games while losing.

I'd love to see how many leads were blown in games they weren't used but guys like Joba, Gorzelanny, etc. were.

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Wilson pitched in 53 games this year. 28 times he came in with the Tigers LOSING. Over half. You can't tell me Brad had nobody to turn to. How many times was a reliever struggling and Brad just left him out there to blow the lead before calling on Wilson?

Terrible management and it absolutely led to a lot of the pitchers' inflated numbers.

What if he brought in Wilson first and Wilson did OK and then the other relievers blew the game? That might be better management aesthetically, but they still would have give given up a ton of runs and lost almost all those games. You need about 1,450 innings and Wilson can only pitch 70 of those. Don't forget that their starting rotation was as bad as their bullpen this year. I think a better case can be made that Ausmus hurt the team last year than this year. A manager doesn't matter that much until he has talent with which to work.

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Who are you arguing with?

I edited my post.

I'm arguing the notion that better bullpen management wouldn't have changed anything.

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If you saved them for only when they were winning they'd never pitch.

I don't see why winning or losing is the barometer? If it's 1 or 2 runs late then there's value in keeping it that way, especially at home.

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What if he brought in Wilson first and Wilson did OK and then the other relievers blew the game? That might be better management aesthetically, but they still would have give given up a ton of runs and lost almost all those games. You need about 1,450 innings and Wilson can only pitch 70 of those. Don't forget that their starting rotation was as bad as their bullpen this year. I think a better case can be made that Ausmus hurt the team last year than this year. A manager doesn't matter that much until he has talent with which to work.

Unfortunately, we won't know what would have happened.

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Ausmus objectively handled the bullpen poorly. I don't think anyone even argues this.

But the idea that better bullpen management was going to turn a very bad pitching staff into a merely bad pitching staff seems unlikely to me.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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If you saved them for only when they were winning they'd never pitch.

I don't see why winning or losing is the barometer? If it's 1 or 2 runs late then there's value in keeping it that way, especially at home.

That's a terrible excuse. They had plenty of leads in the first half that were blown.

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Therefore the logical conclusion is to assume the highly unlikely would have happened.

Is that any worse than blindly assuming nothing would have changed?

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This is my view as well. They were going to give up an embarrassing number of runs this year regardless of bullpen management. I can't see how any manager was going to turn this staff into something less than horrible.

No, the manager probably cannot make the pitchers pitch much better. But there were a few marginal things he could have done, and when it comes down to it, isn't that exactly what we should expect from the manager? There isn't much he can do, so he should at least do things he can.

He probably pitched joba too often, for one.

He probably mismanaged the distribution of the few good innings he did have at his disposal. His usage patterns for Alex Wilson after Wilson established himself as a good pitcher was suboptimal.

I do think he was too slow with the hook in general.

Nothing he could have done would have made this an average staff, so in the long run it doesn't matter. He's going to get fired. And we will have a higher draft pick.

Most of this is on DD as well as injuries. DD didn't maintain enough depth, and the injuries exposed that.

Without the injuries and some better managing, maybe we don't have to trade price and soria. We aren't forced to use Kyle Ryan and buck farmer. But that stuff happens, and are better positioned for 2016 and beyond due to the misfortune, so at least there is a silver lining. We got a good influx of talent into the system and we will have a top ten draft pick, and we have more money at our disposal as well.

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Is that any worse than blindly assuming nothing would have changed?

Yes it is worse, since the nothing would have changed is the more -> much more probable outcome than the pitching would have significantly improved outcome.

Alex Wilson has pitched 65 innings. The Tigers staff have pitched 1250 innings.

Alex roughly represents 5% of the Tigers innings pitched. 1 inning in 20. The idea that using him more cleverly is going to dramatically save the runs they allowed is highly unlikely. It would be akin to thinking getting an extra 50 AB out of Iglesias by batting him higher in the order earlier in the year would have resulted in 20+ more runs scored.

EDIT: And I have never suggested or claimed it wouldn't change anything. I have claimed it would have resulted in marginal improvements, which are small compared to the hole they found themselves in with crappy pitching overall.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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That's a terrible excuse. They had plenty of leads in the first half that were blown.

But did you know they were good pitchers then?

Judging them by whether the team was up or down is a terrible metric devoid of context.

And before you jump to another conclusion, no I do not think Ausmus is the greatest manager in the history of major league baseball.....

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No, the manager probably cannot make the pitchers pitch much better. But there were a few marginal things he could have done, and when it comes down to it, isn't that exactly what we should expect from the manager? There isn't much he can do, so he should at least do things he can.

He probably pitched joba too often, for one.

He probably mismanaged the distribution of the few good innings he did have at his disposal. His usage patterns for Alex Wilson after Wilson established himself as a good pitcher was suboptimal.

I do think he was too slow with the hook in general.

Nothing he could have done would have made this an average staff, so in the long run it doesn't matter. He's going to get fired. And we will have a higher draft pick.

Most of this is on DD as well as injuries. DD didn't maintain enough depth, and the injuries exposed that.

Without the injuries and some better managing, maybe we don't have to trade price and soria. We aren't forced to use Kyle Ryan and buck farmer. But that stuff happens, and are better positioned for 2016 and beyond due to the misfortune, so at least there is a silver lining. We got a good influx of talent into the system and we will have a top ten draft pick, and we have more money at our disposal as well.

This is pretty much how I feel.

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If you saved them for only when they were winning they'd never pitch.

I don't see why winning or losing is the barometer? If it's 1 or 2 runs late then there's value in keeping it that way, especially at home.

I don't get that barometer either. Are they supposed to bring in some crappy pitcher if they are losing 5-4 in the sixth inning? When you have a poor starting rotation, you can't just have a closer and setup man, you need good middle relievers too and they didn't have that. There is no way they could have avoided giving up a ton of runs this year. Even if Ausmus's mismanagement cost them 50 runs (which seems like an absurd total), they still would have had an ERA of 4.38 which would have been 14th out of 15 AL teams.

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