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Why not hire Gardenhire?

Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      12
    • Only if all better options are exhausted (explain)
      10


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So it probably doesn't matter if we have a competent GM either, then.

I don't understand this comment.

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How exactly do players on a baseball team pull in different directions? You get an AB, you hit the ball. A ball is hit to you, you catch it. Are players supposedly trying to prevent each other from allowing this to happen? How exactly does one pull in a different direction than another player?

Not trying to be a smartass, just never understood this.

So you don't remember the Higginson days and the alleged divide with the Hispanics? How about all of the money dumped into sports psychology which if nothing else is an acknowledgement that there are other factors that impact performance. Leadership is about creating an environment that maximizes performance.

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So you don't remember the Higginson days and the alleged divide with the Hispanics? How about all of the money dumped into sports psychology which if nothing else is an acknowledgement that there are other factors that impact performance. Leadership is about creating an environment that maximizes performance.

Shoes maximize potential and a ton of money goes into shoe technology. How much better does the shoe really make an athlete though?

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I have worked a lot of jobs with crappy management. I still work hard and do a good job because I'm a driven individual. While I find this is somewhat unusual in the 'normal world' I expect people who are a more extreme (and talented!) version of me are pretty much the norm in pro sports.

I think sports psychology stuff is useful for players with weird mental blocks or confidence issues, but I doubt an untrained manager is any help with that stuff anyway. Brad Ausmus telling me he believes in me probably wouldn't fix my Chuck Knoblauch disease for instance

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I don't understand this comment.

I don't mean to confuse the issue. Effective leadership is the most important factor in success.

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I don't mean to confuse the issue. Effective leadership is the most important factor in success.

Not in my experience and I've been on both sides. Granted I only have 6 guys working for me but they've never needed me to tell them to work or how to do their job. Everyone there helps each other. I don't think corporate America relates to baseball as much as you're making it out to, but that's my opinion.

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The key to being a good manager is keeping the people who hate me away from those who are still undecided.

-Casey Stengel

Edited by STLTiger69

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There are a lot of different issues here:

Baseball is not football. As has been noted, you don't need much 'leadership' from a baseball manager during a game. You do need sound strategy decisions.

Where a baseball manager's leadership can matter is not during the play but the preparation. Are guys accountable to their training, film use, use of practice time? Does he use playing time assignments or other tools to enforce accountability, or does he play favorites, etc?

Another aspect is simple competence. Does he assemble and manage an effective coaching staff?

A baseball season is so long and there is so little time away from each other that a baseball manager has more responsibility for maintaining a positive mood in the clubhouse than other sports. This is not so much leadership per se as just being good with group psychology and entertainment. As noted though, the value of this aspect for a baseball manger depends a lot on the make-up of the personality types on the team. You might have 25 guys who do fine with no 'social management', you might 25 guys that get on each other's nerves or get run down from the grind. Again, this probably affects team preparation more than game play per se.

To a fan, the aspect that stands out is always field strategy, and Ausmus has arguably shown more deficiencies in this area than we'd like. How a manger handles the other aspects usually only emerges to fans over the whole course of a guy's career as it did with JL - or after he gets fired and people start talking to the media. :laugh:. And more importantly, whatever 'win value' all the non on-the-field stuff has is probably nearly impossible to quantify.

For instance, the text recently referenced pegged JL as a slightly negative value manager on the quantitative measures it captured. I can certainly believe that but still feel he was a overall positive presence to the Tiger team performance over his tenure.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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This is vastly overrated. Baseball is no different than any other profession. People police themselves and 99% of the time, everyone figures out how to get along. People may blow up time to time but the next day it's back to normal. I've never seen "great leadership"... I've never needed it. No adult should. Especially when you have the distraction of doing something fun every day.

Serious?

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Why is it the only counter-arguments we're getting is "serious?" and "do you really believe that"?

If you guys think baseball players so badly need leadership, please state your cases. Maybe we'll learn something new.

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nah jk bro

Its just never been my experience in life that leadership isn't a factor in such scenarios. I don't know if motivation is the right word, but leadership goes much beyond that. Guys lose focus, they get too up, too down. They overthink their contract status, or the fact that they're in a slump, or that their kid is sick or their wife is is cheating on them. You have to get guys to buy in to playing different roles. Batting lower in a lineup, playing a different position, a lesser role etc. . Motivation is some of it it too. The all time greats are typically 100% motivated, but that's not a skill that the majority of people in any field possess. Not to mention a 162 game MLB schedule is simply mentally and physically draining. So many things affect whether a human being is motivated, focused, productive etc. and a manager's job is to well, manage those things.

Not to mention needing a singular voice at some point to make the other major decisions that are required for a baseball team on that level

I honestly wasn't sure if you were serious at first. Guess I should have read the rest of the thread first.

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I'm sure all the management stuff you guys talk about matters to an extent. It's just when I hear stuff like leadership is the most important part of success, it sounds like BS. It just has not been my experience. In my experience, the only leadership thing that matters is the leader getting grant money to keep us employed.

Edited by tiger337

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I have worked a lot of jobs with crappy management. I still work hard and do a good job because I'm a driven individual. While I find this is somewhat unusual in the 'normal world' I expect people who are a more extreme (and talented!) version of me are pretty much the norm in pro sports.

I think sports psychology stuff is useful for players with weird mental blocks or confidence issues, but I doubt an untrained manager is any help with that stuff anyway. Brad Ausmus telling me he believes in me probably wouldn't fix my Chuck Knoblauch disease for instance

I have never worked in a successful organization that had bad leadership. They might have had bad managers in certain departments that they would largely ignore because either the department was insignificant to the goals or was no more costly than if it had a good manager.

It isn't about coming in and working hard, most everyone does that in a professional organization. It's about setting priorities, boundaries, challenging, motivating, etc.

Edited by Truth

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I'm sure all the management stuff you guys talk about matters to an extent. It's just when I hear stuff like leadership is the most important part of success, it sounds like BS. It just has not been my experience. In my experience, the only leadership thing that matters is the leader getting grant money to keep us employed.

Yah I don't know about the most important. For baseball managers I figure it can mean plus or minus 4 wins.

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This thread sucks.

See this is exactly where a good mod could make a difference. There's nothing left to post for except padding your stats. It's been a long season and Shelton is losing his motivation to give each post his best effort.

Fire all the mods.

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Running a baseball team as a manager is not something you do from listening to seminars from tony robbins.

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Why is it the only counter-arguments we're getting is "serious?" and "do you really believe that"?

If you guys think baseball players so badly need leadership, please state your cases. Maybe we'll learn something new.

I'm a big proponent of the difference that leadership makes. Admittedly it can be tough to quantify with numbers, but I'll try. I think often back to 2006. There weren't HUGE differences in player personnel between the `05 and `06 teams (most notably Verlander), yet the team excelled under Jim Leyland. & continued to excel under his leadership for the better part of the last decade. Under Brad Ausmus, performance has fallen off. Obviously there are other factors (losing Scherzer/selling off), not to mention Ausmus' style just doesn't seem to mesh with the talents of his team. I think that is one thing that separates good leaders from okay/less than stellar leaders .. the ability to best utilize your teams' strengths.

I also remember Leyland talking when he first took the job in `06 about why he left baseball in the first place, saying something to the effect that he just didn't have it in him to put out the clubhouse fires anymore. He didn't suddenly lose his knowledge of baseball, but there's a certain level of engagement that's necessary to keep 25 egos all pulling together. Is it as important as talent? Maybe not, but I also don't think it can be brushed aside.

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People that are happy in their work place generally tend to do their jobs better. So I do think there is something to having a manager that knows how to handle the different personalities.

Mostly you need someone who would've walked ****ing Altuve (I'm not letting this go!) but you do need someone that communicates well with different people.

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Leyland also said he never went into the clubhouse so how much of an effect could he have?

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Leyland also said he never went into the clubhouse so how much of an effect could he have?

True, but communication with players happens on the field during batting practice, in his office, etc. Maybe when someone had an issue they would go talk to him privately and then the situation would get resolved.

Though I was glad when Leyland retired. I also thought Brad was going to be awesome. So who the **** knows....

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There's a dramatic difference between leadership and management. Most of the leadership traits people are cutting in this thread are actually management traits. Both are exceptionally important in any kind of business; sometimes the management traits are more important or prevalent, other times the leadership traits. They are vastly different and incredibly important, even in the world of professional sports.

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