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Why not hire Gardenhire?

Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Ron Gardenhire be the next Tigers manager?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      12
    • Only if all better options are exhausted (explain)
      10


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I remember people criticizing Leyland's moves after every loss the last couple of years. Cecil used to come and defend him every night and pissed everybody off.

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I remember people criticizing Leyland's moves after every loss the last couple of years. Cecil used to come and defend him every night and pissed everybody off.

I remember KL2 being the stoutest defender of Leyland around and me respecting the hell out of that. I may have not liked certain things Leyland did but I was always happy with how he managed the 25-40 corporate entities that made up the team.

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I just did a little research. The Tiger bullpen was responsible for 7 of the their first 24 losses. I imagine if I had the time and/or patience, I would find many more.

The horrendous bullpen was a big factor this season. Maybe the biggest.

I would wager that if you took the amount of games that the bullpen lost for the entire season and gave the Tigers wins in half of those games...they are in the playoffs.

Somebody do that.

Now.

EDIT: I dunno. Sounds good anyways.

Edited by Antrat

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I remember KL2 being the stoutest defender of Leyland around and me respecting the hell out of that. I may have not liked certain things Leyland did but I was always happy with how he managed the 25-40 corporate entities that made up the team.

I liked Leyland too. I thought he was overrated in '06 and underrated in later years.

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Pitching Wilson and Hardy in games they are winning doesn't guarantee they hold the lead.

No clue what point you're trying to make because nobody ever said it would. But ok Oblong.

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If you simply look at the average leverage index for the pitchers, you see that Wilson was used on average in lower leverage situations. That just doesn't make a lot of sense for a guy that was one of your best relievers. You see that joba was used in high leverage situations.

It's not as simple as trailing vs leading. It's better to use Wilson when trailing by one than it is to use him when leading by 2.

It probably adds up to a couple wins over the course of a season. But there is enough variance that suboptimal usage resulted in equivalent wins or even more wins.

I think the point is that Alex Wilson should have been trusted more than joba or feliz, but that wasn't the case.

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Well, 2-3 wins before the all-star break means they probably don't trade Cespedes, Price, and Soria, which means the 5 WAR they've accumulated since the trade makes it 7-8 more wins. One of those wins probably comes against Texas, which means our 9.5 game deficit is actually a 0.5-1.5 game deficit.

Very nice post, I agree completely. Mismanagement rather than poor talent took this team from competitive to awful this year, I don't see how this is disputable. I'm not sure how precisely to disentangle Ausmus' role in this vs. DD, but I know Ausmus has played a big part; and I have absolutely no doubt that this team could have won 90 games this year with the right management and moves since the end of the 2014 season (including in-season moves, which they have been horrible at this year).

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Agree in part.

I agree that a few more wins before the deadline probably means we hold those guys. But I think everything that has happened since would still have is far enough back that we wouldn't have a good chance at the playoffs. You could swap boyd for price one for one. But we'd still be relying on farmer, Ryan, wolf(?) for too many starts. Sanchez still gets hurt. Simon still sucks. Then pen is hardly better, even with soria. Cespedes's is an obvious upgrade over rajai and Collins. But does he have the same magic here that he has had in New York? Probably not.

I don't think we'd be five post deadline wins better if we had heals them.

I think the 'pen could have been easily waaaaayyy better than it has for the last 6 weeks.

And FWIW I wonder if pitching Sanchez too far into games contributed to his injury situation. Just speculation I admit, and I'm happy to drop this point completely if someone bothers to dig up the data that proves otherwise. :)

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I disagree somewhat and agree somewhat.

It's true that journalists can't get away with as much as they used to. The team doesn't need them anymore, and really doesn't owe them anything either. I'm always surprised when some journalist complains about not being given enough access. The journalists need the team more than the team needs them. That wasn't always the case.

Baseball is more a regional game than a national game now. It has probably always been that way. Teams needed the local media to keep them in the spotlight when access to news was harder. It wasn't too long ago where the only way to find out how the team did was to open the paper or tune in to the local news. I still remember putting on Headline News in the morning because it had a ticker and I needed to know the score of a late game.

So I do understand why journalists seem more soft these days. They don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. I don't particularly feel like the writers need to be tougher or act like *******s or betray a confidence. But I do think they need to ask better questions or try to actually uncover some news.

It pains me to say it, but at least that hack Tony Paul interviewed Avila and provided some actual news for once.

Anyway, I guess my point about henning not stirring things up is merely that. It's not a complaint that he doesn't. I get it. He makes a living opining on the state of the team. He isn't going to stir things up these days because he's a huge homer and would be devastated if he was ever shut out. He's a mouthpiece.

That's one reason why I don't get bothered by a place like the DSR posting a rumor that people find surprising. I'm not immediately skeptical of it because they don't rely on daily access to get their scoops. They aren't even about scoops for the most part. They are just angry fans. But they also won't look good if their few scoops turn out to be wrong. They tell it like is more often than not, and far more often than he vanilla snark you get from guys like Iott and Beck and Mowery, who mostly trade on concern trolling and telling people what they already know.

Nice post, thank you, and I agree that "vanilla snark, concern trolling and telling people what they already know" is the root of most sports journalism sins these days.

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I think the 'pen could have been easily waaaaayyy better than it has for the last 6 weeks.

And FWIW I wonder if pitching Sanchez too far into games contributed to his injury situation. Just speculation I admit, and I'm happy to drop this point completely if someone bothers to dig up the data that proves otherwise. :)

I don't know if it hurt him either but they knew in May that Sanchez was hurting and they still routinely let him throw well over 100 pitches.

Anibal Sanchez 2015 Pitching Gamelogs | Baseball-Reference.com

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If you simply look at the average leverage index for the pitchers, you see that Wilson was used on average in lower leverage situations. That just doesn't make a lot of sense for a guy that was one of your best relievers. You see that joba was used in high leverage situations.

It's not as simple as trailing vs leading. It's better to use Wilson when trailing by one than it is to use him when leading by 2.

It probably adds up to a couple wins over the course of a season. But there is enough variance that suboptimal usage resulted in equivalent wins or even more wins.

I think the point is that Alex Wilson should have been trusted more than joba or feliz, but that wasn't the case.

Here are the deficits Wilson pitched in this year: 8, 8, 3, 1, 6, 1, 1, 6, 4, 4, 6, 1, 1, 2, 13, 1, 4, 6, 1, 4, 1, 6, 2, 1, 2, 4, 1, 2, 1, 14

A lot of 1's, and I know they sometimes had to pitch him just to get work, but this is crazy.

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Very nice post, I agree completely. Mismanagement rather than poor talent took this team from competitive to awful this year, I don't see how this is disputable.

The mid-season sell-off complicates matters, but I think it's very disputable given the lack of talent on their pitching staff. This team has never shown since mid April that it was capable of putting together a run worthy of a post-season appearance. It's a weak enough team where I don't think it belongs in the playoffs and I'm looking forward to an interesting re-tooling this winter.

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Here are the deficits Wilson pitched in this year: 8, 8, 3, 1, 6, 1, 1, 6, 4, 4, 6, 1, 1, 2, 13, 1, 4, 6, 1, 4, 1, 6, 2, 1, 2, 4, 1, 2, 1, 14

A lot of 1's, and I know they sometimes had to pitch him just to get work, but this is crazy.

A lot of the early season deficits are excusable because there was no way of knowing how good he was going to be. I don't think the sample size was big enough until June to be confident. I'd look at June and July as months he could have been used better. Since the deadline, I think he's been used reasonably well.

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Here are the deficits Wilson pitched in this year: 8, 8, 3, 1, 6, 1, 1, 6, 4, 4, 6, 1, 1, 2, 13, 1, 4, 6, 1, 4, 1, 6, 2, 1, 2, 4, 1, 2, 1, 14

A lot of 1's, and I know they sometimes had to pitch him just to get work, but this is crazy.

There is one variable that wouldn't necessarily be captured correctly. Rest & rust.

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A lot of the early season deficits are excusable because there was no way of knowing how good he was going to be. I don't think the sample size was big enough until June to be confident. I'd look at June and July as months he could have been used better. Since the deadline, I think he's been used reasonably well.

This is the team that made Feliz a setup man after two appearances. Joba was immediately the 8th inning guy to start the season. I don't think they had to wait until June to start trusting him.

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And FWIW I wonder if pitching Sanchez too far into games contributed to his injury situation. Just speculation I admit, and I'm happy to drop this point completely if someone bothers to dig up the data that proves otherwise. :)

That's probable. I know he's topped out at 200 IP a couple of times, but it just seems like he can't get through a season without missing a handful of starts.

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This is the team that made Feliz a setup man after two appearances. Joba was immediately the 8th inning guy to start the season. I don't think they had to wait until June to start trusting him.

Lots of relievers do well for a few weeks and then pitch like crap. He didn't come up until late April and nobody (except vabengalfan) expected him to be any more than a mop up guy. So, I can't fault the manager for thinking he wasn't a setup man the first month. I'd say by June, he should have been pitching more regularly in high-leverage spots.

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Everyone thought the same things about Feliz and Joba. We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

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Everyone thought the same things about Feliz and Joba. We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

I didn't even want Chamberlain on the team this year, but given what they had going into the season I can't fault Ausmus for hoping he could repeat his performance from last year's first half.

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Is anyone posting posting to this thread from a browser? Tap-a-talk still gets to it but a browser is misdirecting to 'billy sims bbq'. I remember this happening to one other thread a couple of years ago but forgot if what happened was ever figured out.

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