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I think free agents are lottery tickets, it's no way to build a team. The Tigers lack a strong foundation for their home right now. It's time to fix it from the bottom up.

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That's like saying you shouldn't buy a front door because it will cost you one out 50 floor joists.

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2004 Comp Picks

Glen Perkins (Twins-1) - Pick from Mariners as compensation for Free Agent Eddie Guardado

Phil Hughes (Yankees-1) - Pick from Astros as compensation for Free Agent Andy Pettitte

Landon Powell (Athletics-1) - Pick from Red Sox as compensation for Free Agent Keith Foulke

Kyle Waldrop (Twins-1) - Pick from Cubs as compensation for Free Agent LaTroy Hawkins

Blake DeWitt (Dodgers-1) - Pick from Yankees as compensation for Free Agent Paul Quantrill

Matt Campbell (Royals-1) - Pick from Giants as compensation for Free Agent Michael Tucker

Eric Hurley (Rangers-1) - Pick from Braves as compensation for Free Agent John Thomson

J.P. Howell (Royals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Raul Ibanez

Zach Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Kelvim Escobar

Justin Orenduff (Dodgers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Paul Quantrill

Tyler Lumsden (White Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Bartolo Colon

Matt Fox (Twins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Eddie Guardado

Danny Putnam (Athletics-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Keith Foulke

Jon Poterson (Yankees-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Andy Pettitte

Gio Gonzalez (White Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Tom Gordon

Jay Rainville (Twins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent LaTroy Hawkins

Huston Street (Athletics-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Miguel Tejada

Jeff Marquez (Yankees-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent David Wells

2005

*Compensation Picks

C.J. Henry (Yankees-1) - Pick from Phillies as compensation for Free Agent Jon Lieber

Aaron Thompson (Marlins-1) - Pick from Giants as compensation for Free Agent Armando Benitez

Jacoby Ellsbury (Red Sox-1) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Orlando Cabrera

Craig Hansen (Red Sox-1) - Pick from Dodgers as compensation for Free Agent Derek Lowe

Colby Rasmus (Cardinals-1) - Pick from Red Sox as compensation for Free Agent Edgar Renteria

Jacob Marceaux (Marlins-1) - Pick from Yankees as compensation for Free Agent Carl Pavano

Matt Torra (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Richie Sexson

Chaz Roe (Rockies-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Vinny Castilla

Johnny Drennen (Indians-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Omar Vizquel

Ryan Tucker (Marlins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Armando Benitez

Cesar Ramos (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent David Wells

Travis Buck (Athletics-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Damian Miller

Trevor Bell (Angels-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Troy Percival

Eli Iorg (Astros-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Carlos Beltran

Hank Sanchez (Twins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Corey Koskie

Luke Hochevar (Dodgers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Adrian Beltre

Beau Jones (Braves-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jaret Wright

Clay Buchholz (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Pedro Martinez

Mark McCormick (Cardinals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Edgar Renteria

Sean West (Marlins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Carl Pavano

Jed Lowrie (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Orlando Cabrera

Tyler Herron (Cardinals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Mike Matheny

Michael Bowden (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Derek Lowe

Wow.... look at 2007. The motherload of supplemntal picks. Those teams must have hit the jackpot that got those picks.

*Compensation Picks

Kevin Ahrens (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Frank Catalanotto

Blake Beavan (Rangers-1) - Pick from Astros as compensation for Free Agent Carlos Lee

Chris Withrow (Dodgers-1) - Pick from Red Sox as compensation for Free Agent Julio Lugo

Tim Alderson (Giants-1) - Pick from Dodgers as compensation for Free Agent Jason Schmidt

Michael Main (Rangers-1) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Gary Matthews

Wendell Fairley (Giants-1) - Pick from Mets as compensation for Free Agent Moises Alou

Josh Smoker (Nationals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Alfonso Soriano

Nick Noonan (Giants-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Moises Alou

Jon Gilmore (Braves-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Danys Baez

Todd Frazier (Reds-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Rich Aurilia

Julio Borbon (Rangers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Carlos Lee

Clayton Mortensen (Cardinals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jeff Suppan

Travis d'Arnaud (Phillies-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent David Dellucci

Brett Cecil (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Justin Speier

James Adkins (Dodgers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Julio Lugo

Kellen Kulbacki (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Woody Williams

Sean Doolittle (Athletics-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Barry Zito

Eddie Kunz (Mets-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Roberto Hernandez

Jackson Williams (Giants-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jason Schmidt

Neil Ramirez (Rangers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Gary Matthews

Justin Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Frank Catalanotto

Drew Cumberland (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Dave Roberts

Nathan Vineyard (Mets-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Chad Bradford

Josh Donaldson (Cubs-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Juan Pierre

Michael Burgess (Nationals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jose Guillen

Wes Roemer (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Craig Counsell

Charlie Culberson (Giants-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Mike Stanton

Matt Mangini (Mariners-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Gil Meche

Kyle Lotzkar (Reds-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Scott Schoeneweis

Tommy Hunter (Rangers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Mark DeRosa

Nick Hagadone (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Alex Gonzalez

Trystan Magnuson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Ted Lilly

Mitch Canham (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Chan Ho Park

Jon Bachanov (Angels-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Adam Kennedy

Corey Brown (Athletics-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Frank Thomas

Brandon Hamilton (Tigers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jamie Walker

Ed Easley (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Miguel Batista

Ryan Dent (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Keith Foulke

Cory Luebke (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Alan Embree

Danny Payne (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Ryan Klesko

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2008

*Compensation Picks

Ike Davis (Mets-1) - Pick from Braves as compensation for Free Agent Tom Glavine

Carlos Gutierrez (Twins-1) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Torii Hunter

Shooter Hunt (Twins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Torii Hunter

Jake Odorizzi (Brewers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Francisco Cordero

Zach Collier (Phillies-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Aaron Rowand

Evan Frederickson (Brewers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Scott Linebrink

Conor Gillaspie (Giants-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Pedro Feliz

Jordan Lyles (Astros-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Trever Miller

Lance Lynn (Cardinals-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Troy Percival

Brett DeVall (Braves-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Ron Mahay

Ryan Flaherty (Cubs-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jason Kendall

Wade Miley (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Livan Hernandez

Jeremy Bleich (Yankees-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Luis Vizcaino

Bryan Price (Red Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Eric Gagne

Logan Forsythe (Padres-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Doug Brocail

2009

*Compensation Picks

Drew Storen (Nationals-1s) - Supplemental pick for failure to sign 2008 1st round choice Aaron Crow

A.J. Pollock (Diamondbacks-1) - Pick from Dodgers as compensation for Free Agent Orlando Hudson

Randal Grichuk (Angels-1) - Pick from Mets as compensation for Free Agent Francisco Rodriguez

Mike Trout (Angels-1) - Pick from Yankees as compensation for Free Agent Mark Teixeira

Nick Franklin (Mariners-1) - Pick from Phillies as compensation for Free Agent Raul Ibanez

Slade Heathcott (Yankees-1s) - Supplemental pick for failure to sign 2008 1st round choice Gerrit Cole

Tim Wheeler (Rockies-1) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Brian Fuentes

Steven Baron (Mariners-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Raul Ibanez

Rex Brothers (Rockies-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Brian Fuentes

Matt Davidson (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Orlando Hudson

Aaron Miller (Dodgers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Derek Lowe

James Paxton (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent A.J. Burnett

Josh Phegley (White Sox-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Orlando Cabrera

Kentrail Davis (Brewers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent CC Sabathia

Tyler Skaggs (Angels-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Mark Teixeira

Chris Owings (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Juan Cruz

Garrett Richards (Angels-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Francisco Rodriguez

Brad Boxberger (Reds-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jeremy Affeldt

Tanner Scheppers (Rangers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Milton Bradley

Mike Belfiore (Diamondbacks-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Brandon Lyon

Matt Bashore (Twins-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Dennys Reyes

Kyle Heckathorn (Brewers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Brian Shouse

Tyler Kehrer (Angels-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jon Garland

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Y'all want the Detroit Phillies.

Dude, people just want to take each situation at it's face. Some contracts might be worth losing a draft pick. Others won't.

To say all contracts won't be worth a draft pick and that it's not even worth discussing on a player-by-player basis is a very close-minded position to have and will be mocked.

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Worth noting I guess that the Tigers lost out on Mike Foltynewicz when they signed Valverde... too bad. Imagine how much he'd help our bullpen now. They also lost out on Matt Barnes the following year when signing Victor... who needed Victor. And the feared Clint Coulter when they signed Prince.

Imagine how pumped our prospect lists would have been the last few years with those extra three picks to flood our system.

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Worth noting I guess that the Tigers lost out on Mike Foltynewicz when they signed Valverde... too bad. Imagine how much he'd help our bullpen now. They also lost out on Matt Barnes the following year when signing Victor... who needed Victor. And the feared Clint Coulter when they signed Prince.

Imagine how pumped our prospect lists would have been the last few years with those extra three picks to flood our system.

Have you seen the organizational rankings? I'm sure the Tigers are loaded with prospects, and have enough to trade in case we need players at the deadline. Oh, wait.

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My point is that the Tigers need to fix all parts of their organization right now, not just their major league team. They need top young talent. They have been bottom feeding for the past 10 years, and the cupboards are bare. But we want to eat at the finest restaurants when we have no food in the house.

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My point is that the Tigers need to fix all parts of their organization right now, not just their major league team. They need top young talent. They have been bottom feeding for the past 10 years, and the cupboards are bare. But we want to eat at the finest restaurants when we have no food in the house.

and everybody else's point is that a loss of a second round pick doesn't prevent you from fixing the farm. It's a second round pick, most amount to nothing. Does giving up that for an immediate help guy cripple you in the long-term? Probably not.

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My point is that the Tigers need to fix all parts of their organization right now, not just their major league team. They need top young talent. They have been bottom feeding for the past 10 years, and the cupboards are bare. But we want to eat at the finest restaurants when we have no food in the house.

They need to fix the major league team first and foremost. If they can improve the system at the same time, cool, but that's secondary. If there's a guy they need and they have to give up their 2nd round pick, they need to do that. And will.

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Have you seen the organizational rankings? I'm sure the Tigers are loaded with prospects, and have enough to trade in case we need players at the deadline. Oh, wait.

So the guys we moved to get Fister and Sanchez and Soria and Price... heck I'll even throw in Washburn and Huff as it was a fine plan that didnt work out... you'd rather have those prospects than what we got at the ML level?

You say not to sign guys if it means you lose picks. I point out 3 lost draftees for when we signed guys.... answer this.... would you rather have kept those picks instead of signing valverde and victor and prince?

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I have like 30 rally towels from playoff games... they are great for taking to the gym. I am bummed I wont get more this year. Tell me.... do they give out towels for having a stocked system?

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I have like 30 rally towels from playoff games... they are great for taking to the gym. I am bummed I wont get more this year. Tell me.... do they give out towels for having a stocked system?

You might underrate having a good farm system as much as Cruzer overrates it, to be honest.

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My point is that the Tigers need to fix all parts of their organization right now, not just their major league team. They need top young talent. They have been bottom feeding for the past 10 years, and the cupboards are bare. But we want to eat at the finest restaurants when we have no food in the house.

No one disagrees with this.

Everyone's point is that if it comes down to it, adding a good free agent at the cost of a second round pick is at least a defensible move and shouldn't be dismissed out of like you are doing.

Sure, if you've got a pair of similar players with similar demands and one doesn't require a draft pick, then of course defer to the guy without a draft pick attached.

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You might underrate having a good farm system as much as Cruzer overrates it, to be honest.

No.... I just recognize there's more to it than single draft picks. Cruzer sees a conflict between the system and major leagues. I see no relationship. You can build both. One doesnt have to come at the expense of the other.

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No.... I just recognize there's more to it than single draft picks. Cruzer sees a conflict between the system and major leagues. I see no relationship. You can build both. One doesnt have to come at the expense of the other.

And rightfully so, but you have also blown it off as being unimportant too many times to forget over the years. Not trying to criticize you, it's just interesting watching you two go back and forth.

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I think people do overrate the system rankings and prospects. But I am not telling them not to draft people. Systems and prospects are unknowns. Most of the time it's just guys guessing rather than doing what micro does.

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Yeah we get it. Farm system is bad. One second round pick isn't going to change it though.

Further.... How has the free agent signing strategy hampered at ranking?

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I'll beat this horse good and dead.

I don't care where you pick, you are lucky to get a Tony Clark caliber player with any pick that you would lose via signing a free agent.

I liked Tony Clark, perhaps more than most, but a difference maker he wasn't.

If you can get a free agent that is objectively a better player than Clark was, I don't see how you can objectively not go for it solely on the premise it costs you a comp pick, no matter how bad your system is.

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Further.... How has the free agent signing strategy hampered at ranking?

Dombrowski's inability to build a pen during the offseason the pasts two seasons played a bigger role. We gave up three pitchers for Soria and Veras that probably would have helped. Last report I heard on the PTBNL From the Astros was Paulino was touching triple digits.

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As long as you're aware they they do have an importance. 14 players on the current 25-man roster are making 525k or less. Teams badly need good cost-controlled players as much as they need the big guys. We've seen what happens when they don't have them. The whole "trade them all, they're just prospects" card is just as faulty as the side that thinks you shouldn't sign a good FA if it costs a 2nd round pick. There has to be a good balance.

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As long as you're aware they they do have an importance. 14 players on the current 25-man roster are making 525k or less. Teams badly need good cost-controlled players as much as they need the big guys. We've seen what happens when they don't have them. The whole "trade them all, they're just prospects" card is just as faulty as the side that thinks you shouldn't sign a good FA if it costs a 2nd round pick. There has to be a good balance.

Of course if you draft and scout well, it solves both problems: you can more easily afford to give up one guy in a trade or F/A deal; you are also less likely to need to make as many trade or F/A deals.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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