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I'm sure the Cardinals are an exception to a rule, but I'd like to have their past decade and a half of success. This will be their 12th postseason out of 16 seasons, 9 of those by division champion. How have they been able to remain towards the top of the heap when they aren't spending as much as the top teams during that time frame nor are they drafting high on the draft board either? (The salary doesn't bug from the standpoint of how the players are acquired and retained, but more as an opportunity cost. IE, the money that is being spent on an old and broken down VMartinez could've been used elsewhere.)

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The only one of those guys the Tigers could have drafted was Gallo, and that is if they didn't sign Prince Fielder, who provided value before being traded for a 5+ win 2B. I'll take that trade. They don't win the division from 2012-2014 without signing Prince Fielder. And I guess they could have theoretically signed Sano, but that was a very very weird signing, so much that an awesome documentary was made about it.

I haven't seen that. Where can I see it? What is the name of the doc?

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I'm a football fan and a baseball fan that has watched both drafts for the past 40 years.

The MLB Draft was not televised until 2009. Up until the mid 90's, it was intentionally and strategically kept under wraps. Until 1981, there were four different drafts. I'm calling BS.

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The MLB Draft was not televised until 2009. Up until the mid 90's, it was intentionally and strategically kept under wraps. Until 1981, there were four different drafts. I'm calling BS.

I have followed both drafts. Back in the old days it was just getting as much from the newspaper as possible. I followed the minor leagues every Sunday when they posted stats. Usually it was just Evansville.

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I'm sure the Cardinals are an exception to a rule, but I'd like to have their past decade and a half of success. This will be their 12th postseason out of 16 seasons, 9 of those by division champion. How have they been able to remain towards the top of the heap when they aren't spending as much as the top teams during that time frame nor are they drafting high on the draft board either? (The salary doesn't bug from the standpoint of how the players are acquired and retained, but more as an opportunity cost. IE, the money that is being spent on an old and broken down VMartinez could've been used elsewhere.)

The Cardinals model is hard to duplicate in a short period of time. They develop consistently and don't have an owner who is wedded to stars(Mike I).

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I'm sure the Cardinals are an exception to a rule, but I'd like to have their past decade and a half of success. This will be their 12th postseason out of 16 seasons, 9 of those by division champion. How have they been able to remain towards the top of the heap when they aren't spending as much as the top teams during that time frame nor are they drafting high on the draft board either? (The salary doesn't bug from the standpoint of how the players are acquired and retained, but more as an opportunity cost. IE, the money that is being spent on an old and broken down VMartinez could've been used elsewhere.)

To be honest, the Cardinals have been extremely lucky with player development the past ten years. The pitching staff has players like Jaime García, Michael Wacha, Carlos Martínez and they have also developed players like Matt Carpenter, Kolten Wong and Stephen Piscotty. To me the Cardinals are simply much better than average the past few years with player development than other teams.

Matt Carpenter was drafted in the 13th round of the 2009 draft.

Jamie Garcia 22nd round of 2005 draft

Kolten Wong 1st round 2011 draft

Stephen Piscotty 1st round 2012 draft

Carlos Martínez Originally signed by the Boston Red Sox as an international free agent in 2009. MLB voided his contract for discrepancies over his name and date of birth and the Cardinals swooped in and signed him in 2010.

Michael Wacha 1st round 2012 draft

My point here is, not only is the Cardinals #1 draft picks represented on the Cardinals MLB roster, but so are players from the 13th round, the 22nd round and even a player the Cardinals took a chance on who was a international free agent. The Cardinals simply have been both very good and extremely lucky with their building and grooming of minor league talent.

And remember, for a time, the Atlanta Braves was pretty amazing at obtaining and grooming young talent too......

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To be honest, the Cardinals have been extremely lucky with player development the past ten years. The pitching staff has players like Jaime García, Michael Wacha, Carlos Martínez and they have also developed players like Matt Carpenter, Kolten Wong and Stephen Piscotty. To me the Cardinals are simply much better than average the past few years with player development than other teams.

Matt Carpenter was drafted in the 13th round of the 2009 draft.

Jamie Garcia 22nd round of 2005 draft

Kolten Wong 1st round 2011 draft

Stephen Piscotty 1st round 2012 draft

Carlos Martínez Originally signed by the Boston Red Sox as an international free agent in 2009. MLB voided his contract for discrepancies over his name and date of birth and the Cardinals swooped in and signed him in 2010.

Michael Wacha 1st round 2012 draft

My point here is, not only is the Cardinals #1 draft picks represented on the Cardinals MLB roster, but so are players from the 13th round, the 22nd round and even a player the Cardinals took a chance on who was a international free agent. The Cardinals simply have been both very good and extremely lucky with their building and grooming of minor league talent.

And remember, for a time, the Atlanta Braves was pretty amazing at obtaining and grooming young talent too......

Is it being lucky, is it being good at what they do, or is it a combination?

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Pelotero, on Netflix.

Thanks! I just watched it. It was fascinating. I loved the part where Sano's family did their own investigation.

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To be honest, the Cardinals have been extremely lucky with player development the past ten years. The pitching staff has players like Jaime García, Michael Wacha, Carlos Martínez and they have also developed players like Matt Carpenter, Kolten Wong and Stephen Piscotty. To me the Cardinals are simply much better than average the past few years with player development than other teams.

Matt Carpenter was drafted in the 13th round of the 2009 draft.

Jamie Garcia 22nd round of 2005 draft

Kolten Wong 1st round 2011 draft

Stephen Piscotty 1st round 2012 draft

Carlos Martínez Originally signed by the Boston Red Sox as an international free agent in 2009. MLB voided his contract for discrepancies over his name and date of birth and the Cardinals swooped in and signed him in 2010.

Michael Wacha 1st round 2012 draft

My point here is, not only is the Cardinals #1 draft picks represented on the Cardinals MLB roster, but so are players from the 13th round, the 22nd round and even a player the Cardinals took a chance on who was a international free agent. The Cardinals simply have been both very good and extremely lucky with their building and grooming of minor league talent.

And remember, for a time, the Atlanta Braves was pretty amazing at obtaining and grooming young talent too......

Wacha was compensation for losing Pujols. Trout was also a comp pick, although that system is now different.

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The Cardinals model is hard to duplicate in a short period of time. They develop consistently and don't have an owner who is wedded to stars(Mike I).

Why does it have to be a short period of time? Just do it the right way.

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Is it being lucky, is it being good at what they do, or is it a combination?

That's why I mentioned the Braves. From 1991 to 2005 everybody thought their favorite team just needed to do things the way the Atlanta Braves did. I haven't heard fans or baseball pundits mentioning the way the Braves "do it" anymore as the best model. My point is that, if I could look into a crystal ball and say that just 3 of the Tigers next 6 first round draft picks will be with the MLB team and playing near all-star production, you'd think the Tigers are doing it "right" too.

To your question, it is a "combination" because I don't think the Braves suddenly forgot how to draft like the braves used too and that's why they are not the same dominate team they once were.

SIX YEARS AGO, the Red Soxs signed Carlos Martinez to a $140,000 contract that was voided by MLB because Martinez was a bit fuzzy about his real name and his date of birth. After a one year suspension by MLB, the St. Louis Cardinals gave Martinez a $1.5 million dollar signing bonus to sign as a minor league free agent in 2010. By way of comparison, the Tigers were paying Bobby Seay $2.5 million for 2010 season. A lot of teams passed on Martinez because that $1.5M was real money that could have been put to use building a major league roster but the Cardinals were kooky enough to bet on Mr. Martinez and see what would happen.

If your not keeping up with the Cardinals, Martinez has a season ERA of 3.01 through 28 starts. Martinez has lowered his three year career ERA to 3.55. Max Scherzer is pitching this year with a 2.90 ERA, but he's costing the Nationals over $17M this year, Martinez is costing the Cardinals just $520,000 for 2015....

And to answer your question more pointedly, skill in drafting and evaluating talent is important to give an organization the best CHANCE of that prospect helping your organization. However, I personally would rather have the Tigers owned the LUCKIEST mlb scout in history, I'd rather have had names like: Carlos Martinez, Mike Piazza, Keith Hernandez, Mark Buehrle and Kenny Rogers than get names like Kasey Kike, Daniel Moskos, Billy Rowell, Barret Loux or Josh Vitters.

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One of Dombrowski's faults was taking advantage of the comp system. During the comp a and comp b era we routinely in most years not have a single pick, while the A's and the Nats had seven picks before we even selected our first player.

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One of Dombrowski's faults was taking advantage of the comp system. During the comp a and comp b era we routinely in most years not have a single pick, while the A's and the Nats had seven picks before we even selected our first player.

The compensation system only really worked when teams lost a lot of players due to free agency. The Tigers were always more focused on trying to build a better team then letting some of their better players leave so they could get comp picks back in return.

The Nationals were not trying to hold a good team together and the A's were masters at figuring out if a player was about to be a free agent at the end of the year, could the A's get a better value by trading that same player during the year for prospects or get a better line on prospects if that same player refused arbitration and went elsewhere.

You'll also notice that the A's and Nationals have mixed results even when they took advantage of the comp system too...

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The only one of those guys the Tigers could have drafted was Gallo, and that is if they didn't sign Prince Fielder, who provided value before being traded for a 5+ win 2B. I'll take that trade. They don't win the division from 2012-2014 without signing Prince Fielder. And I guess they could have theoretically signed Sano, but that was a very very weird signing, so much that an awesome documentary was made about it.

Unless they signed Cespedes (who we were apparently frontrunners for until the Victor injury), who provided similar value to Prince in 2012 and 2013 and who would have allowed us to keep Miguel at 1b.

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One of Dombrowski's faults was taking advantage of the comp system. During the comp a and comp b era we routinely in most years not have a single pick, while the A's and the Nats had seven picks before we even selected our first player.

I remember when the Rays had 10.

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Also another quick thought about talent evaluation and the draft.

The SF Giants are praised because they drafted Madison Bumgarner with the 10th pick of the 2007 draft. But that is partially because 9 other teams DIDN'T draft Bumganer before the Giants did. TB drafted David Price #1, KC picked Mike Moustakas #2, Cubs picked Josh Vitters #3, Pirates picked Daniel Moskos #4, Orioles Matt Wieters #5,Nationals Ross Detwiler #6 Brewers Matt LaPorta #7 , Rockies Casey Weathers #8, Diamondbacks Jarrod Parker #9 and again, Giants Madison Bumgarner #10.

For what it is worth, the Giants could have had Bumgarner as their 10th best player that they wanted going into the draft. If Moskos or Vitters would have been still available, SF might have simply selected Moskos or Vitters instead and waited to see if Bumgarner would have made it to the second round. But as fate and luck would have it, the Cubs and Pirates would be the victims in that 2007 first round and take Moskos and Vitters off the draft board so SF could take Bumgarner instead. (PS, the Tigers drafted Rick Porcello with their 27th pick in 2007).

To be honest, the Tigers can scout and rate players better than most teams, but if other teams are taking the top players in front of you, it makes things a bit harder to compensate for....

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I couldn't give two ****s about the 'right way'. I want to win as soon and for as long as possible.

Everybody wants that.

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We definitely want a higher pick and a higher allotment of bonus pool money if the season is toast.

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Also another quick thought about talent evaluation and the draft.

The SF Giants are praised because they drafted Madison Bumgarner with the 10th pick of the 2007 draft. But that is partially because 9 other teams DIDN'T draft Bumganer before the Giants did. TB drafted David Price #1, KC picked Mike Moustakas #2, Cubs picked Josh Vitters #3, Pirates picked Daniel Moskos #4, Orioles Matt Wieters #5,Nationals Ross Detwiler #6 Brewers Matt LaPorta #7 , Rockies Casey Weathers #8, Diamondbacks Jarrod Parker #9 and again, Giants Madison Bumgarner #10.

For what it is worth, the Giants could have had Bumgarner as their 10th best player that they wanted going into the draft. If Moskos or Vitters would have been still available, SF might have simply selected Moskos or Vitters instead and waited to see if Bumgarner would have made it to the second round. But as fate and luck would have it, the Cubs and Pirates would be the victims in that 2007 first round and take Moskos and Vitters off the draft board so SF could take Bumgarner instead. (PS, the Tigers drafted Rick Porcello with their 27th pick in 2007).

To be honest, the Tigers can scout and rate players better than most teams, but if other teams are taking the top players in front of you, it makes things a bit harder to compensate for....

Oh, sure, that's a possibility. And if it works out that way, fine, but it doesn't.

Looking back at the 2007 draft, the Tigers picked Porcello when they could have picked Todd Frazier or Josh Donaldson who both went later as 1st round supplemental picks and have had higher career WAR. Jordan Zimmerman and Giancarlo Stanton went in the 2nd (before the Tigers selected knuckleballer Danny Worth).

2008 was a bad draft return for the Tigers. Ryan Perry went off of the board to the Tigers before lots of other useful parts were selected (Gerrit Cole, Lance Lynn, Wade Miley, Logan Forsythe, etc. Alex Avila (5th round) and Andy Dirks (8th round) were the only MLB players of salvageable value that the Tigers drafted that season.

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Also another quick thought about talent evaluation and the draft.

The SF Giants are praised because they drafted Madison Bumgarner with the 10th pick of the 2007 draft. But that is partially because 9 other teams DIDN'T draft Bumganer before the Giants did. TB drafted David Price #1, KC picked Mike Moustakas #2, Cubs picked Josh Vitters #3, Pirates picked Daniel Moskos #4, Orioles Matt Wieters #5,Nationals Ross Detwiler #6 Brewers Matt LaPorta #7 , Rockies Casey Weathers #8, Diamondbacks Jarrod Parker #9 and again, Giants Madison Bumgarner #10.

For what it is worth, the Giants could have had Bumgarner as their 10th best player that they wanted going into the draft. If Moskos or Vitters would have been still available, SF might have simply selected Moskos or Vitters instead and waited to see if Bumgarner would have made it to the second round. But as fate and luck would have it, the Cubs and Pirates would be the victims in that 2007 first round and take Moskos and Vitters off the draft board so SF could take Bumgarner instead. (PS, the Tigers drafted Rick Porcello with their 27th pick in 2007).

To be honest, the Tigers can scout and rate players better than most teams, but if other teams are taking the top players in front of you, it makes things a bit harder to compensate for....

this is why I think you have to stress the comparative time value of assets when looking at how you deal. I think it is less a matter of "prospects vs trades&FAs" - the bigger issue is giving up long term assets for short term ones. That is how you deplete your total system value whether you are trading major leaguers for major leaguers, signing FA and losing picks or moving prospects for established talent. Any of those moves can be positives if they add to the product of your total talent times how long you control it.

To me a deal like the Tigers made for Price hinged completely on whether they signed him. If they had signed him for a number of years, what they gave up would have been worth it. Since they didn't it would not have been. Only because the team did not perform and they moved him have they recovered some value. Had they gone to the playoffs and then lost him in the off-season it would have been a deal that hurt them in the long run.

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