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when you write the words "kill an innocent human being" I don't think you really believe it is the case. If you really did believe it then that means you would have been ok living near a concentration camp in Poland or Germany and let other people deal with it and not physically try to help them.

Most of us do. What would you suggest us to do to stop it? Violence with violence? That is counter intuitive. This is why pro choice people voice their opinions so veraciously...minus donating to pro life movements there is not a ton we can do that does not end in more senseless violence. Trying to get those on the other side to understand what they are doing is the only thing we can do when the laws of the country allow it.

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I loved my philosphy studies but hated.... hated... the classes themselves due to everybody else. Many just couldn't grasp that it's an academic exercise. They were arguing things for real... like it was Morton Downey Jr. The Ethics class was especially bad. The class wasn't to teach you ethics, it was to teach you how to think about ethics. Spouting opinions in these classes wasn't the point - in my opinion.

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Most of us do. What would you suggest us to do to stop it? Violence with violence? That is counter intuitive. This is why pro choice people voice their opinions so veraciously...minus donating to pro life movements there is not a ton we can do that does not end in more senseless violence. Trying to get those on the other side to understand what they are doing is the only thing we can do when the laws of the country allow it.

What would you do if you knew the house across from you was killing 2 year old children and the police couldn't/wouldn't stop it because they said it was ok to do so and the courts agreed? Would you just let it go on? Would you try to stop it from happening?

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I loved my philosphy studies but hated.... hated... the classes themselves due to everybody else. Many just couldn't grasp that it's an academic exercise. They were arguing things for real... like it was Morton Downey Jr. The Ethics class was especially bad. The class wasn't to teach you ethics, it was to teach you how to think about ethics. Spouting opinions in these classes wasn't the point - in my opinion.

Along a similar vein, one of the worst courses I took was an accounting class when I was getting my MBA. There were 3 or 4 people that kept interrupting class to ask 'hypothetical' tax filing questions that clearly were being asked for their personal filings, and the prof indulged it.

It was painal.

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What would you do if you knew the house across from you was killing 2 year old children and the police couldn't/wouldn't stop it because they said it was ok to do so and the courts agreed? Would you just let it go on? Would you try to stop it from happening?

These examples are horrible. If you asked them about 20-30 years before Roe V Wade then it kinda makes sense, I guess. Add about 70 years of living as though killing 2 years olds has somehow become legal and ask the question and then it makes a little more sense as well. Society is split on the abortion issue. If right here and right now it came out that killing 2 year olds was now something legal I would most likely find the people responsible for making that legal and I would wipe them off the face of the earth and go live in the mountains and cut myself off from society forever. I have given the idea a ton of thought already.

I guess that is why clinic bombings were more common when Roe v Wade first came out.

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Awesome news!

I'd say also post this good news in the bring a smile to your face thread. I suspect many don't enter this thread that would enter that one.

Thanks! We are all beyond joy over the adoption, so this only doubled it. I don't have grandchildren but get to enjoy grandma privileges from my sweet niece and her husband.

I put it here because I always think of our family and what a wonderful, anticipated event these adoptions have been when the abortion topic comes up. They have been alive and human and very very wanted since we learned about them. All of them, including the almost feral two year old, severely neglected they fostered then adopted. He is six now and so awesome and fun.

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I loved my philosphy studies but hated.... hated... the classes themselves due to everybody else. Many just couldn't grasp that it's an academic exercise. They were arguing things for real... like it was Morton Downey Jr. The Ethics class was especially bad. The class wasn't to teach you ethics, it was to teach you how to think about ethics. Spouting opinions in these classes wasn't the point - in my opinion.

Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut the **** Up

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Our family is growing. An expectant couple have agreed to my niece and her husband as adoptive parents. Bonus came yesterday at the ultrasound when they discovered it is twin girls! We are all so excited. These will be her third and fourth adopted children. The babies are around 14-16 weeks gestation. (They know, I forget and am guessing from the due date.). Yes, I said "babies."

Twins are awesome. Congrats!

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Thanks! We are all beyond joy over the adoption, so this only doubled it. I don't have grandchildren but get to enjoy grandma privileges from my sweet niece and her husband.

I put it here because I always think of our family and what a wonderful, anticipated event these adoptions have been when the abortion topic comes up. They have been alive and human and very very wanted since we learned about them. All of them, including the almost feral two year old, severely neglected they fostered then adopted. He is six now and so awesome and fun.

I have a co-worker that adopted an abused and neglected child about 3 years ago and it is uplifting to see the child's progress in those 3 years and depressing to know how badly treated the child was the first 4 years of her life.

Kudos to your niece.

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I'm not an embryologist, so I'll make this easy for both of us. The third week after conception is when the brain and heart start to form. Would you agree to a law making abortion illegal after 3 weeks?

Fetal development: The 1st trimester - Mayo Clinic

I personally would not, but I do not define human life at the start of the formation of the heart and brain.

I know the question was posed specifically to Walt and is meant to address his question to you.

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I personally would not, but I do not define human life at the start of the formation of the heart and brain.

I know the question was posed specifically to Walt and is meant to address his question to you.

Well he was trying to muddy up the waters by claiming that conception is a hazy process and so we can't know when "life" begins. So I'm offering him the option of skipping over the hazy part.

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If the life of the mother is at stake (actually her life, not broadly-defined "health"), then yes. And it would be a tragedy. Any other circumstance, no matter how sad or complicated, does not justify killing the baby.

Now your turn: what are the circumstances under which you think the law should prohibit abortion?

Well, actually, I have more, but I will answer yours first.

I've not thought much about under which circumstances the law should prohibit abortion, but I suppose one circumstance could be forced abortion, in which the abortion is performed against the mother's wishes. So, if the provider does not obtain clear, direct and unambiguous consent from the woman or the girl prior to the abortion, they could be in violation and liable to be prosecuted under those circumstances.

OK, another question for you:

So, other than in circumstances in which the mother is not in immediate and grave danger of losing her life, would you like to see abortion completely outlawed? Assuming that's correct, would this mean that all pregnant women—including victims of violent rape, victims of (especially intergenerational) incest, minors who were victimized by statutory rape, and women and girls who consent to sex but are in no way prepared to have and raise a child—would be compelled to carry the child to term? This is a neutral question seeking to probe the extent of your thinking.

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Well, actually, I have more, but I will answer yours first.

I've not thought much about under which circumstances the law should prohibit abortion, but I suppose one circumstance could be forced abortion, in which the abortion is performed against the mother's wishes. So, if the provider does not obtain clear, direct and unambiguous consent from the woman or the girl prior to the abortion, they could be in violation and liable to be prosecuted under those circumstances.

OK, another question for you:

So, other than in circumstances in which the mother is not in immediate and grave danger of losing her life, would you like to see abortion completely outlawed? Assuming that's correct, would this mean that all pregnant women—including victims of violent rape, victims of (especially intergenerational) incest, minors who were victimized by statutory rape, and women and girls who consent to sex but are in no way prepared to have and raise a child—would be compelled to carry the child to term? This is a neutral question seeking to probe the extent of your thinking.

First - you said you haven't thought much about when abortion should be illegal - can I ask you to think about it for a minute? Not including the "forced abortion" situation you describe, do you think abortion should be legal for anyone, for any reason, at, say, 9 months?

To answer your question, no unborn baby can control the circumstances under which they are conceived. It's not their fault and they don't deserve to die. With that said, from a practical standpoint, I would be more than willing to support a law that made exceptions for rape and incest, since those situations are statistically insignificant, and most abortions are done for convenience.

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First - you said you haven't thought much about when abortion should be illegal - can I ask you to think about it for a minute? Not including the "forced abortion" situation you describe, do you think abortion should be legal for anyone, for any reason, at, say, 9 months?

To answer your question, no unborn baby can control the circumstances under which they are conceived. It's not their fault and they don't deserve to die. With that said, from a practical standpoint, I would be more than willing to support a law that made exceptions for rape and incest, since those situations are statistically insignificant, and most abortions are done for convenience.

I think the LARGE majority of us pro lifers would allow for special circumstances like rape or incest, but like you said the % of those is so darn small to make it almost irrelevant in the overall discussion (a life is still a life), but always seems to be a talking point for pro choicers.

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I would guess it could also be fairly said that most abortions are performed to prevent significant hardship on individuals that are not in a great position to take on additional hardship.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I'm not an embryologist, so I'll make this easy for both of us. The third week after conception is when the brain and heart start to form. Would you agree to a law making abortion illegal after 3 weeks?

Fetal development: The 1st trimester - Mayo Clinic

Not with the supplied information, no I wouldn't. I am not an embryologist either, but I do understand 10th grade biology.

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Well he was trying to muddy up the waters by claiming that conception is a hazy process and so we can't know when "life" begins. So I'm offering him the option of skipping over the hazy part.

I wasn't trying to muddy the waters, but rather illustrate that you are just as guilty of the same thing that you are complaining about. It doesn't skip over anything, since it referenced to the same thing in question. I understand, and respect, your position, but don't think that the veracity of your convictions is a compelling argument in the face of actual facts and knowledge.

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First - you said you haven't thought much about when abortion should be illegal - can I ask you to think about it for a minute? Not including the "forced abortion" situation you describe, do you think abortion should be legal for anyone, for any reason, at, say, 9 months?

Well, I did think about it, for about a minute, and that was the answer I came up with. :grin:

I don't know whether abortion should be legal at nine months, but I do think abortion should be legal until that point that an abortion would harm the health of the mother. My impression is that the later an abortion is, the riskier to the woman it becomes; that abortions after 20 weeks carry a similar risk of death from abortion as death from childbirth; and that abortions performed after the 24th week typically are done only when the mother is in grave jeopardy.

So I guess in strictly legal terms, it should be legal for a woman to get an abortion right up until the day of birth, since in practical terms, abortions at anything approaching nine months occur only when something gravely goes wrong, and as it is, only about 1% of all abortions take place beyond 20 weeks.

To answer your question, no unborn baby can control the circumstances under which they are conceived. It's not their fault and they don't deserve to die. With that said, from a practical standpoint, I would be more than willing to support a law that made exceptions for rape and incest, since those situations are statistically insignificant, and most abortions are done for convenience.

I agree that most abortions are done for the convenience of not imposing a significant hardship on the mother. In the most cited credible poll I found, 73% cited financial hardships, 74% cited interference her education, work or other responsibilities; and 48% said they did not have the support of or contact with the father, or were having relationship problems with the father.

In a abortion-is-outlawed world, through the years, millions of girls and women, many of whom are young teen and preteen girls coerced into having sex in the first place by adult men, would be compelled to carry the child to term and raise it themselves, as the father takes himself out of the picture, the girl gives up schooling that might better her life to take whatever low paying no-health-care-giving job she can get, trying to raise the child in impoverished circumstances, all while being criticized for becoming a single mother, and ultimately resenting having to bear her child and the damage that did to her life while taking out her frustrations on that kid throughout his childhood as he ends up drifting who knows where, all while putting billions of dollars in additional strain on the state welfare system. And beyond that, hundreds of thousands of girls and women taking their chances and get illegal abortions, frequently unsafe, and resulting in many multiples more deaths on abortion tables than the single digit number per year that occurs today.

Do you believe this state of affairs would be preferable to having safe, legal abortion available to girls and women who simply are not equipped to raise children?

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Not with the supplied information, no I wouldn't. I am not an embryologist either, but I do understand 10th grade biology.

I'm confused. What did they teach you in 10th grade biology that is informing your pro-choice position?

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I'm confused. What did they teach you in 10th grade biology that is informing your pro-choice position?

As far as when conception happens, if one were to formulate an informed opinion on when that occurs, one would reasonably need to know what was occurring, wouldn't you think. I was being generous, as this is part of the curricula in most middle schools or junior highs. At the very least, anyone with a high school education should have at least been exposed to the process.

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