Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I'm putting this in the Bar and Grill with hopes that it won't be brought down to the sewer level of the political forum. I'm looking for opinions and not name calling/petty partisan garbage.

Why are you or aren't you voting for Proposal One?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FanDuel Michigan Sports Betting

FanDuel Michigan $100 Launch Offer

Michigan online sports betting is launching shortly ( December 2020 or January 2021). Pre-register at FanDuel Sportsbook and get $50 free sports bets + $50 free online casino bets with no deposit necessary. Claim $100 at FanDuel Michigan Now

I'm putting this in the Bar and Grill with hopes that it won't be brought down to the sewer level of the political forum. I'm looking for opinions and not name calling/petty partisan garbage.

Why are you or aren't you voting for Proposal One?

When they use scare tactics to pass a proposal I usually vote the opposite. Non partisan message....the government gets enough of my money to do all the things the government is supposed to do for me. They miss manage it and expect us to flip the bill for their incompetence. No thanks. I guess I will have to be scared every time I drive down the road because a 'big chunk of asphalt might come through my window!'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm about as strong a lean "NO" as you can be.... the only thing that keeps me from being in the solid "NO" camp is.... the roads truly are horrible. I just can't help but think there are ways to deal with this short of the most regressive possible tax increase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I would say independent of the fact that funds may have been mismanaged in the past, the roads in Michigan absolutely need to be repaired. Further if part of the issue in addressing roads is (current) tax / funding schemes do not support road maintenance adequately, then it seems to me it has to be addressed, presuming (as I do) one thinks roads absolutely need to be repaired.

All in all, I am in support of proposal one, even if I do not agree with all of the parts of it.

I think Michigan is better off with a yes vote rather than a no.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm about as strong a lean "NO" as you can be.... the only thing that keeps me from being in the solid "NO" camp is.... the roads truly are horrible. I just can't help but think there are ways to deal with this short of the most regressive possible tax increase.
I guess I would say independent of the fact that funds may have been mismanaged in the past, the roads in Michigan absolutely need to be repaired. Further if part of the issue in addressing roads is (current) tax / funding schemes do not support road maintenance adequately, then it seems to me it has to be addressed, presuming (as I do) one thinks roads absolutely need to be repaired.

All in all, I am in support of proposal one, even if I do not agree with all of the parts of it.

I think Michigan is better off with a yes vote rather than a no.

I'm smack dab right in the middle of these thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am mixed on this.

First of all, what are the gas taxes for? I thought they were meant to fix roads and to me that's fair, as much as it hurts because the more you drive, the more of it you pay, so it's more representative of your usage. But there are so many problems. We have to to be the worst state and major city for public transportation. You know it is possible to both own a car and use public transportation. They can co-exist. How cool would it be to drive part of the way to work, park somewhere and take a real train to the city? Doesn't hurt Boston. No, too many businesses would lose revenue from parking and gas and tires. Don't they realize that new revenue opportunities would spring up. Look at Minnespolis, Look at Dallas. It was a huge success for both cities. This is what happens when you only consider business interests and never the public good. You can consider both, at the same time and both can benefit. So we are forced to drive on bad roads because we have no other option. But limitless weight on trucks? Does any other state allow that? Roads built to last about 3 years. That's not acceptable. That's merely to keep the money flowing to the contractors to be in a constant state of rebuilding, which in a state as big as ours would still happen if the roads were built for 10 years. But it's more than 1 cent on sales tax, it's doubling the gas tax, it's higher fees for registration (I guess even higher if you have a more fuel efficient vehicle, like that makes any sense). And I simply don't trust either party to do what they are supposed to do. I should vote yes, but I can't.

But here's the part that really bothers me. Why the hell are we having an election for this one issue? I'll tell you why.......because we have a gutless legislature that won't do their job out of fear that making a hard decision will cost them the next election. This is not leadership, this is pandering and it's pathetic. These clowns are paid nearly $90,000 base salary to make tough decisions. Do your damn job. Make the decisions. Don't pass the buck. This is going to lose and they'll have to raise taxes anyway, so all this effort and money will have been a waste. Can we pass a proposal that our legislature stops getting their paychecks until they come up with a solution. Our roads are embarrassing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a no. I don't like the sales tax as a general proposition, and I don't like all the extraneous matter hammered into a messy pastiche where half of what's in there wouldn't stand on its own merits, and most fundamentally I don't like that the overall effort from square one has been to allow the legislature's anti-tax zealots to have their cake and eat it too so they can continue to run on the fantasy politics of "I opposed every tax increase" and/or that good government comes for free.

Edited by Gehringer_2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
....and most fundamentally I don't like that the overall effort from square one has been to allow the legislature's anti-tax zealots to have their cake and eat it too so they can continue to run on the fantasy politics of "I opposed every tax increase" and/or that good government comes for free.

I hear and 100% agree with you in principle, but I think pragmatically that is what will (must?) transpire to get any sort of traction on raising the necessary funds to do anything meaningful.

I don't know how to get to a place where meaningful discussions about how best to raise and spend tax revenue is part of the general political discourse without it devolving into rhetoric.

Not to be negative, but I fear it is one of those things where things have to be absolutely dire financially for people collectively to consider all alternatives and forge something resembling a true piece of great legislature.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm leaning toward voting no. However, I don't trust the clowns we have in Lansing to come up with a viable alternative. The lame duck legislature punted and gave us this albatross, the current crop seems even worse. If the Proposal fails (and I expect it will) they will just take a look at the numbers and do absolutely nothing Gov. Snyder be damned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hear and 100% agree with you in principle, but I think pragmatically that is what will (must?) transpire to get any sort of traction on raising the necessary funds to do anything meaningful.

I don't know how to get to a place where meaningful discussions about how best to raise and spend tax revenue is part of the general political discourse without it devolving into rhetoric.

Not to be negative, but I fear it is one of those things where things have to be absolutely dire financially for people collectively to consider all alternatives and forge something resembling a true piece of great legislature.

Maybe Gov Snyder can assume control of the roads until they are fixed. Kevin Orr will be out there with a grader, laying asphalt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a hesitant yes. Because the roads really suck. Almost as bad as the legislature. Term limits .... the institutionalization of incompetence. (but I digress). However, if things like truck weight were addressed, I'd feel better about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But here's the part that really bothers me. Why the hell are we having an election for this one issue?

I think there's a lot of truth to your rant on the quoted question above, but I know there are other things on my ballot on the local level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am mixed on this.

First of all, what are the gas taxes for? I thought they were meant to fix roads and to me that's fair, as much as it hurts because the more you drive, the more of it you pay, so it's more representative of your usage. But there are so many problems. We have to to be the worst state and major city for public transportation. You know it is possible to both own a car and use public transportation. They can co-exist. How cool would it be to drive part of the way to work, park somewhere and take a real train to the city? Doesn't hurt Boston. No, too many businesses would lose revenue from parking and gas and tires. Don't they realize that new revenue opportunities would spring up. Look at Minnespolis, Look at Dallas. It was a huge success for both cities. This is what happens when you only consider business interests and never the public good. You can consider both, at the same time and both can benefit. So we are forced to drive on bad roads because we have no other option. But limitless weight on trucks? Does any other state allow that? Roads built to last about 3 years. That's not acceptable. That's merely to keep the money flowing to the contractors to be in a constant state of rebuilding, which in a state as big as ours would still happen if the roads were built for 10 years. But it's more than 1 cent on sales tax, it's doubling the gas tax, it's higher fees for registration (I guess even higher if you have a more fuel efficient vehicle, like that makes any sense). And I simply don't trust either party to do what they are supposed to do. I should vote yes, but I can't.

But here's the part that really bothers me. Why the hell are we having an election for this one issue? I'll tell you why.......because we have a gutless legislature that won't do their job out of fear that making a hard decision will cost them the next election. This is not leadership, this is pandering and it's pathetic. These clowns are paid nearly $90,000 base salary to make tough decisions. Do your damn job. Make the decisions. Don't pass the buck. This is going to lose and they'll have to raise taxes anyway, so all this effort and money will have been a waste. Can we pass a proposal that our legislature stops getting their paychecks until they come up with a solution. Our roads are embarrassing.

Michigan has one of the lowest gas taxes in the Midwest. Michigan is different in that they charge sales tax on gas. You remove that sales tax from gas for roads, you then have to make up the revenue somewhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When they use scare tactics to pass a proposal I usually vote the opposite. Non partisan message....the government gets enough of my money to do all the things the government is supposed to do for me. They miss manage it and expect us to flip the bill for their incompetence. No thanks. I guess I will have to be scared every time I drive down the road because a 'big chunk of asphalt might come through my window!'.

BUT WHAT'S HOLDING THE PLYWOOD UP?!?!?!??!!?!?!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm about as strong a lean "NO" as you can be.... the only thing that keeps me from being in the solid "NO" camp is.... the roads truly are horrible. I just can't help but think there are ways to deal with this short of the most regressive possible tax increase.

I agree with pfife...this is truly bipartisanship!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

Not to be negative, but I fear it is one of those things where things have to be absolutely dire financially for people collectively to consider all alternatives and forge something resembling a true piece of great legislature.

Maybe, but I'm going to bet that if the prop goes down in flames, the legislature will have a simple 'clean' gas tax increase in on the floor within weeks, like they should have done a couple of years ago. Might not happen, but that's where I think it will go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm against proposal one because I once read a book called "Free Market Roads" by economist Murray Rothbard and have been hooked on that idea ever since. I'm probably wrong in my thinking, so maybe I'll come around one day, but it's what I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still dont get what we do different from other midwest states... do we spend less?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still dont get what we do different from other midwest states... do we spend less?

Lowest of the 50 states percapita - and considering that have one of the worst freeze-thaw conditions, lots of winter precipitation, a lot of subsurface clay that kills drainage, and high load limits, we need to be one of the highest just to be 'equal'.

Edited by Gehringer_2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe, but I'm going to bet that if the prop goes down in flames, the legislature will have a simple 'clean' gas tax increase in on the floor within weeks, like they should have done a couple of years ago. Might not happen, but that's where I think it will go.

You have more faith than I.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe, but I'm going to bet that if the prop goes down in flames, the legislature will have a simple 'clean' gas tax increase in on the floor within weeks, like they should have done a couple of years ago. Might not happen, but that's where I think it will go.

You wanna bet a six pack on that? They won't pass any kind of tax hike at all because if they raised it a single dime (and we're talking an actual 10 cents for the entire year) it will be used against them in their next campaign. They are gutless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You wanna bet a six pack on that? They won't pass any kind of tax hike at all because if they raised it a single dime (and we're talking an actual 10 cents for the entire year) it will be used against them in their next campaign. They are gutless.

Someone should combat this by using the crappy condition of the roads against incumbents in the next camp pain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You wanna bet a six pack on that? They won't pass any kind of tax hike at all because if they raised it a single dime (and we're talking an actual 10 cents for the entire year) it will be used against them in their next campaign. They are gutless.

I'll wager that aside from a very few fringe districts, no-one who votes for a straight up gas tax increase will lose a *general* election over it. Now there may be GOP candidates who have trouble with their primary because of it, but both parties today are small minorities and that is their problem if they can't fix their primary systems to generate candidates people are willing to support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, allowing private ownership of roads is closer to allowing a regulated monopoly (e.g. power generation) rather than unfettered competition. There are absolutely costs to monitoring that need to be considered and risks for skimming/gouging at the corporate level that have to be considered as well.

The same challenges that make building and maintaining an extensive network of roads is going to exist independent of whichever entity is responsible for that task. It seems unlikely to me private enterprise is more efficient / better organized enough relative to guvmint to lead to significant savings for the populace in general.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Michigan Sports Betting Offer

FanDuel Sportsbook Michigan - Sports Betting is launching in Michigan shortly (December 2020 or January 2021). If you register before it launches you will recieve $50 dollars at their online sportsbook and online casino!

Click Here to claim the FanDuel Michigan for $50 at Online Sportsbook & Casino Pre-registration Bonus Now

Motown Sports Blog



×
×
  • Create New...