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Deleterious

2015 Pistons Off-Season

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I've said this a couple of times recently and completely agree. We should not tie up money hoping for Green. No way the Warriors let him go. The only way he comes here is if he demands a trade and the odds of that happening when they're on the verge of winning a title are pretty much zero.

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BTW: the “soft” label was attached to guys like Dirk and Pau, and they were able to overcome it and win titles as players who fought hard. Granted, their games were very different from Drummond’s. But the point I am making is that in the right situations, guys can change the ways they are viewed.

At 21, I am very happy with Drummond’s development. I think next season will be a big one for him.

Was anyone who has been described as "soft" ever actually been soft? People make arguments and say "well, this guy was described as x and he became y so your argument is invalid." Well, there have been plenty of guys described as soft who actually were pretty soft. Drummond could easily continue to be one of those guys.

But like you said, he's still very young and has time to grow up and get mean.

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Kind of disappointing, but I don’t think Draymond is an elite guy to build around. He is benefiting a lot from playing with an elite defensive player like Bogut and elite offensive players like Curry & Thompson.

Is he worth the max? I think so. But the Pistons would still need another offensive option in addition to Green.

Ive always thought of a "max player" as a guy you build your team around. I dont think Draymond green is a player you build a team around.

However, in todays market he will likely receive a max offer.

The pistons arent going to win by signing draymond green to a max deal, theyre going to win by drafting the next draymond green and developing him.

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I've said this a couple of times recently and completely agree. We should not tie up money hoping for Green. No way the Warriors let him go. The only way he comes here is if he demands a trade and the odds of that happening when they're on the verge of winning a title are pretty much zero.

I'm not sure we are going to be making some grand move with that cap space anyways. That said, Green is probably a zero percent chance so I probably don't bother.

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Ive always thought of a "max player" as a guy you build your team around. I dont think Draymond green is a player you build a team around.

However, in todays market he will likely receive a max offer.

The pistons arent going to win by signing draymond green to a max deal, theyre going to win by drafting the next draymond green and developing him.

That's silly. Adding someone of Green's caliber would most certainly be a huge help in us winning. I think it could be a similar move to Atlanta adding Milsap.

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Drummond is not Benoit Benjamin

Benjamin at 21 was a superior shot blocker and FT shooter, AD is more athletic and a better rebounder by a large margin with Benjamin being a good defensive rebounder and AD being a possible future GOAT offensive rebounder. Both foul prone, a little soft and not up to playing big minutes.

What the two have in common is the huge potential they flashed at a young age that had/have people waiting for the "big jump" year where they become franchise players. Benjamin, predictably, never got there. AD has the puncher's chance Benoit never had because it looks like he actually wants to get better.

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That's silly. Adding someone of Green's caliber would most certainly be a huge help in us winning. I think it could be a similar move to Atlanta adding Milsap.

Did milsap get a max contract? No? Then how is that an analagous situation?

If you can get green for the same deal as milsap got with atlanta, then go ahead. But giving him the same max deal as kevin durant or james harden is just dumb. He's a very good role player, he's not a star player. Not even close.

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Did milsap get a max contract? No? Then how is that an analagous situation?

If you can get green for the same deal as milsap got with atlanta, then go ahead. But giving him the same max deal as kevin durant or james harden is just dumb. He's a very good role player, he's not a star player. Not even close.

Comparing his deal to what Harden and Durant get is silly and shortsighted. You pay what the market demands. You aren't just giving him the same contract as those two, you're giving him the same contract as Hayward and Parsons. If I had the choice between paying Green(a 25 year old starter on a 67 win team who was the DPOY runner up) and paying a true superstar, I'd choose the latter every time. That's not the situation though, so lets deal with reality.

Also, if you'd really like to know, as Del has mentioned, today's max will be a similar percentage of the cap in 2 years as 10 mil is now.

If Green was here, nobody would suggest letting him walk if got a max offer.

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Cant wait for the van gundy-tellum power struggle!

Arn will have no official role in personnel decisions. From what I am gathering, it seems like he was primarily brought in to negotiate the new TV/media deal for the Pistons.

Will SVG/Bowers/Gore call on him for advice/guidance with player decisions? I would assume so. But I don’t think there will be a power struggle when he isn’t on the player management side.

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Did milsap get a max contract? No? Then how is that an analagous situation?

If you can get green for the same deal as milsap got with atlanta, then go ahead. But giving him the same max deal as kevin durant or james harden is just dumb. He's a very good role player, he's not a star player. Not even close.

He wouldn't be getting "the same deal as Durant or Harden."

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Comparing his deal to what Harden and Durant get is silly and shortsighted. You pay what the market demands. You aren't just giving him the same contract as those two, you're giving him the same contract as Hayward and Parsons. If I had the choice between paying Green(a 25 year old starter on a 67 win team who was the DPOY runner up) and paying a true superstar, I'd choose the latter every time. That's not the situation though, so lets deal with reality.

Or, alternatively, a salary ceiling or cap is a contrivance aimed at keeping salaries down and as a consequence does not reflect to true worth of any player worth more than it.

As a consequence it becomes largely meaningless (even if true) to claim player A is a better value than B because he is a better player and both players have a max contract. Surely, if there was no max contract provision, player A would make more due to being better.

For me, the question of offering anyone a max contract really boils down to:

a. whether or not you think the player in question will produce equal or more value than the contract, and

b. does the player fit into long term plans and not hinder (as best as can be guessed) making planned future moves.

If the answer to both is yes, then consider it, otherwise move on.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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The pistons arent going to win by signing draymond green to a max deal, theyre going to win by drafting the next draymond green and developing him.

I agree with this, though.

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He wouldn't be getting "the same deal as Durant or Harden."

He'd be getting close to the same deal for a very good role player.

I just dont think he's worth it. Between paying green 18 million, paying josh smith 5 million to play somewhere else, paying reggie jackson 14 million+, and extending drummond, the pistons arent going to have a ton of cap space to do much with compared to other teams.

I'm not sure handing draymond green that lind of money makes sense for detroit.

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Arn will have no official role in personnel decisions. From what I am gathering, it seems like he was primarily brought in to negotiate the new TV/media deal for the Pistons.

Will SVG/Bowers/Gore call on him for advice/guidance with player decisions? I would assume so. But I don’t think there will be a power struggle when he isn’t on the player management side.

I dont know, the long history of upper management is littered with the dead bodies of powerful men's egos. Arn tellum is a rich and powerful dude who isnt used to not being listened to. Same as svg, i would assume. The image of all of them getting involved and nobody's ego getting hurt is unlikely, imo.

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Comparing his deal to what Harden and Durant get is silly and shortsighted. You pay what the market demands. You aren't just giving him the same contract as those two, you're giving him the same contract as Hayward and Parsons. If I had the choice between paying Green(a 25 year old starter on a 67 win team who was the DPOY runner up) and paying a true superstar, I'd choose the latter every time. That's not the situation though, so lets deal with reality.

Also, if you'd really like to know, as Del has mentioned, today's max will be a similar percentage of the cap in 2 years as 10 mil is now.

If Green was here, nobody would suggest letting him walk if got a max offer.

But you have a salary cap. Paying "what the market demands" for a good defender/good role player is shortsighted, imo.

Lets remember, the salary cap goes up for all teams, not just detroit. Down the road they might not have the money to sign a great player (should one become available) because were paying 18 million for 10 points and 8 boards a night.

I think this is all moot because golden state isnt going to give him up, but i could be wrong. They could choose to not oay the tax and keep the guys who score the points.

I'd rather see if they will deal barnes for monroe (if thats even possible anymore).

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There are a lot of things to consider when overpaying for a player.

How easy is it to get assets to your market?

Overpaying in Minnesota makes more sense than in Los Angeles.

What piece of the puzzle is the player?

I'm more willing to overpay a guy who is the final piece of your team than I am the first piece. I'm fine overpaying for a player if he takes you from a first/second round loser to a title contender.

How liquid will the player be after he signs your inflated contract?

By liquid I mean how easy it will be to convert the player to cap space and/or other players. Green might not get a lot of (Any?) offers this summer. But that wont be because he isn't wanted. It will be due to the restricted nature of his free agency. Remove the restricted status and teams will be lined up around the corner with offers for him, all at or near the max level.

And as we enter the new/higher salary cap era, he will become even more liquid. In years 2 and 3 where Green will make up 18% and 15% of the cap, teams will be knocking each other over to get at Green.

So using the example Buddha gave where the Pistons need future cap space to sign a great player. It wont be an issue with Green since you will always have an easy time converting him to cap space.

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He'd be getting close to the same deal for a very good role player.

I just dont think he's worth it. Between paying green 18 million, paying josh smith 5 million to play somewhere else, paying reggie jackson 14 million+, and extending drummond, the pistons arent going to have a ton of cap space to do much with compared to other teams.

I'm not sure handing draymond green that lind of money makes sense for detroit.

Opinions on what Green is vary a lot, so I'm not going to get into that part of things,but here's my basic point. How many FAs who are better than Draymond Green do you see go to mid market teams like Detroit on a year to year basis? I haven't done any research, but off the top of my head it happens very, very rarely. So what I'm basically saying is, what are you saving the space for?

I'm not saying we are winning a title next year, but this team seems to want to move forward and win as much as possible as soon as possible. They don't want to rebuild Sixers style. Using the cap space on the best player available, and paying him market value, makes sense to me. Green's a good age to fit into our core and his style fits us solidly as well IMO(though I wish he'd shoot 3s a little better).

I also hate the term role player. Its vague and way too far reaching in its use. A guy who you'd be expecting to be a DPOY candidate on a year to year basis and who is hardly Tony Allen or Ben Wallace offensively deserves to be called more than a "role player". He's not a superstar(though analytics might disagree), but there's something in between there.

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There are a lot of things to consider when overpaying for a player.

How easy is it to get assets to your market?

Overpaying in Minnesota makes more sense than in Los Angeles.

What piece of the puzzle is the player?

I'm more willing to overpay a guy who is the final piece of your team than I am the first piece. I'm fine overpaying for a player if he takes you from a first/second round loser to a title contender.

How liquid will the player be after he signs your inflated contract?

By liquid I mean how easy it will be to convert the player to cap space and/or other players. Green might not get a lot of (Any?) offers this summer. But that wont be because he isn't wanted. It will be due to the restricted nature of his free agency. Remove the restricted status and teams will be lined up around the corner with offers for him, all at or near the max level.

And as we enter the new/higher salary cap era, he will become even more liquid. In years 2 and 3 where Green will make up 18% and 15% of the cap, teams will be knocking each other over to get at Green.

So using the example Buddha gave where the Pistons need future cap space to sign a great player. It wont be an issue with Green since you will always have an easy time converting him to cap space.

Well said.

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a superstar is born.......

Alex Kennedy: Determined to bounce back after a rough year, Lance Stephenson is already back in the gym training daily at @ImpactBBall in Las Vegas. Twitter @AlexKennedyNBA - See more at: HoopsHype - NBA Rumors

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There are a lot of things to consider when overpaying for a player.

How easy is it to get assets to your market?

Overpaying in Minnesota makes more sense than in Los Angeles.

What piece of the puzzle is the player?

I'm more willing to overpay a guy who is the final piece of your team than I am the first piece. I'm fine overpaying for a player if he takes you from a first/second round loser to a title contender.

How liquid will the player be after he signs your inflated contract?

By liquid I mean how easy it will be to convert the player to cap space and/or other players. Green might not get a lot of (Any?) offers this summer. But that wont be because he isn't wanted. It will be due to the restricted nature of his free agency. Remove the restricted status and teams will be lined up around the corner with offers for him, all at or near the max level.

And as we enter the new/higher salary cap era, he will become even more liquid. In years 2 and 3 where Green will make up 18% and 15% of the cap, teams will be knocking each other over to get at Green.

So using the example Buddha gave where the Pistons need future cap space to sign a great player. It wont be an issue with Green since you will always have an easy time converting him to cap space.

If you were detroit would you sign him to a max contract?

Do you think he takes detroit to a level where they can make the second round of the playoffs?

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