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2015 Pistons Off-Season

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Did I just see Meeks compared to Middleton?

I hate the off-season.

Except that it isn't the off-season. There are two guys who will both be RFAs this off-season playing against each other right now. Butler is clearly what a max player looks like. Now compare him to Middleton. One is max, one is not. Look at what Leonard is doing. Again, that's a max player. I've been watching the games and the eye test matches the stats test. I'm sure someone will overpay for him, I just don't want it to be us.

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Except that it isn't the off-season. There are two guys who will both be RFAs this off-season playing against each other right now. Butler is clearly what a max player looks like. Now compare him to Middleton. One is max, one is not. Look at what Leonard is doing. Again, that's a max player. I've been watching the games and the eye test matches the stats test. I'm sure someone will overpay for him, I just don't want it to be us.

You're overpaying for a single season and then it drops down to roughly $10M a year in today's dollars after the cap jumps.

If a GM cant understand that then I probably don't want him as my GM. Especially for a team like Detroit who has major issues attracting talent.

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Except that it isn't the off-season. There are two guys who will both be RFAs this off-season playing against each other right now. Butler is clearly what a max player looks like. Now compare him to Middleton. One is max, one is not. Look at what Leonard is doing. Again, that's a max player. I've been watching the games and the eye test matches the stats test. I'm sure someone will overpay for him, I just don't want it to be us.

Its really not a matter of whether Middleton is worth as much as Leonard or Butler though. If we had the option of paying those guys instead of Middleton, I'd take it in a heartbeat. We don't though, so we play the market and use our assets to get the best players possible. Like I said, I wouldn't quite max Middleton, but I'd pay him more than most perceive his market value to be.

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Isn't that how bad teams stay bad? You give max money to non-max players while others are getting actual max players for that same dollar? If I go out and get a Corvette for Lamborghini money, I may be getting a good car, but someone else actually just got a Lamborghini for that kind of money. We're both broke now, but he's got the Lamborghini and I can't compete with that.

On the other hand, I think Del is saying that all contracts will be Corvette money this off-season because of the cap going up, just that some teams will get lucky and get a Lamborghini for Corvette money. That's fine, if you want to look at it that way. But if that's the case then I want Stan to find a way to get us one of the Lamborghini's this off-season.

Point is that no matter how much the contract is or how much it's going to be worth next year I want to be one of the team that gets better value for the dollars going out the door. And any GM who can't figure that out, I don't want as my GM. You can't argue that we should seek to get less value for our dollar. That's just bad business.

A guy like Danny Green is probably going to get 2/3rds of what Middleton gets and he'll serve exactly the same purpose on our team.

Edited by Betrayer

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But to continue your analogy, the choice is an Aspire or a Corvette, not a Corvette or a Lamborghini.

They aren't getting the Lamborghini, so it isn't terribly relevant that someone else has it. You can only control what your assets you can realistically acquire.

So to me, the question is whether Middleton would deliver commensurate value to the contract necessary to acquire him and whether that money could have more effectively been used.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Isn't that how bad teams stay bad? You give max money to non-max players while others are getting actual max players for that same dollar? If I go out and get a Corvette for Lamborghini money, I may be getting a good car, but someone else actually just got a Lamborghini for that kind of money. We're both broke now, but he's got the Lamborghini and I can't compete with that.

On the other hand, I think Del is saying that all contracts will be Corvette money this off-season because of the cap going up, just that some teams will get lucky and get a Lamborghini for Corvette money. That's fine, if you want to look at it that way. But if that's the case then I want Stan to find a way to get us one of the Lamborghini's this off-season.

Point is that no matter how much the contract is or how much it's going to be worth next year I want to be one of the team that gets better value for the dollars going out the door. And any GM who can't figure that out, I don't want as my GM. You can't argue that we should seek to get less value for our dollar. That's just bad business.

A guy like Danny Green is probably going to get 2/3rds of what Middleton gets and he'll serve exactly the same purpose on our team.

Bigglesworth summed it up. You're about to pull up to the starting block in a race and they have a Lamborghini and you're on foot. Take the Corvette and hope your driver and pit crew help cover much of the difference.

and again, you have to remember what percentage of the cap he'll take up going forward

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Bigglesworth summed it up. You're about to pull up to the starting block in a race and they have a Lamborghini and you're on foot. Take the Corvette and hope your driver and pit crew help cover much of the difference.

and again, you have to remember what percentage of the cap he'll take up going forward

Except I'm arguing that Middleton is an Aspire with bucket seats and I'd rather have 2 Aspires than pay Corvette money for one that just has a lot of hype right now because of the bucket seats.

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Except I'm arguing that Middleton is an Aspire with bucket seats and I'd rather have 2 Aspires than pay Corvette money for one that just has a lot of hype right now because of the bucket seats.

Ok well that's not how your first post came off at all. You only mentioned the Corvette and seemingly used it as an analogy for Middleton

Middleton as an Aspire is ridiculous tho

Edited by Nastradamus

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A guy like Danny Green is probably going to get 2/3rds of what Middleton gets and he'll serve exactly the same purpose on our team.

FWIW, why would you want Danny Green when you can have his older, bigger and more versatile cousin Gerald? I'm just not sure how Danny Green fares playing most of his minutes at SF.

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Just listen to Bigglesworth.

He won't steer you wrong.

Just be careful when he asks you over for "summer" fun. Sprinklers are involved.

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Ok well that's not how your first post came off at all. You only mentioned the Corvette and seemingly used it as an analogy for Middleton

Middleton as an Aspire is ridiculous tho

The original car analogy was simply to show that two teams will be paying the same money for two vastly different products. A third car was brought into the mix and things got weird :glasses:

Regardless of the car analogy, I don't see Middleton as much different than a D Green, J Green, or T Harris type player. Yet Middleton is going to get max money and those guys are going to get about 2/3rds of that because he's a Restricted Free Agent so you have to tie up a max offer for a chance to get him. If that's the route we're taking I'd rather tie up that money for a longer shot at getting a better player like Butler, D Green, or Leonard.

If not that, then I'd rather target the players that are closer in value to their price tag.

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So I am clear, the Pistons should not acquire a player at a given cost if there is currently a better player in the league being paid a similar amount?

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So I am clear, the Pistons should not acquire a player at a given cost if there is currently a better player in the league being paid a similar amount?

We're talking about a group of players that will all be in the same off-season market and their pay to value ratio, not what the current pay is for any other players in the league. I would've thought that was obvious.

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The top 10 SF's by RPM. Full of guys that wont opt out, will have their offers matched, are injured, or we dont want.

[TABLE=width: 579]

[TR]

[TD]Player[/TD]

[TD]Pos[/TD]

[TD]Team[/TD]

[TD]Type[/TD]

[TD]ORPM[/TD]

[TD]DRPM[/TD]

[TD]RPM[/TD]

[TD]WAR[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Kawhi Leonard[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]SAN[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.01[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.35[/TD]

[TD=align: right]13.19[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]LeBron James[/TD]

[TD]SF/PF[/TD]

[TD]CLE[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.72[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.94[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7.66[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15.13[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Khris Middleton[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]MIL[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.39[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4.08[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6.47[/TD]

[TD=align: right]12.54[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jimmy Butler[/TD]

[TD]SF/SG[/TD]

[TD]CHI[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.59[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.13[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.46[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.74[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Luol Deng[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]MIA[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.65[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.22[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Wesley Matthews[/TD]

[TD]SG/SF[/TD]

[TD]POR[/TD]

[TD]U[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.06[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.96[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.02[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6.75[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Al-Farouq Aminu[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]DAL[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.49[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.81[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.32[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.75[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Mike Dunleavy[/TD]

[TD]SF/SG[/TD]

[TD]CHI[/TD]

[TD]U[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.75[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.52[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.27[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.02[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jared Dudley[/TD]

[TD]SG/SF[/TD]

[TD]MIL[/TD]

[TD]ETO[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.03[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.05[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.08[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4.65[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Thaddeus Young[/TD]

[TD]PF/SF[/TD]

[TD]BRK[/TD]

[TD]ETO[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.39[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.92[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.34[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

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I still think we should try and get that LeBron guy

He's not too bad but I think SVG is looking at better prospects to sign/trade for.

Since Boston ripped Love's arm off, they could be out of the picture for him. How I wish Monroe would love Cleveland and Love would be open to coming to Detroit in some type of sign and trade deal.

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We're talking about a group of players that will all be in the same off-season market and their pay to value ratio, not what the current pay is for any other players in the league. I would've thought that was obvious.

What I would think is obvious is that the max contract is a constraint placed on salaries such that sort of thinking (i.e. pay to value) really doesn't apply.

If there are two players who both deliver value equal or greater than the max contract, then both merit the max contract independent of whether one is better than the other or not.

Obviously a team should pursue the one they think will deliver them more value, but if they are rebuffed by the better player, they should still pursue the lesser player if they think he will provide value at least commensurate with a max contract.

The fact the salary cap will be increasing makes it more likely a given player will meet that threshold.

In summary, I would suggest that if you don't think Middleton merits a max contract, then argue that specific point. You many be right, I am not sold on him by any means. But that has zero to do with whether or not a better player is available via free agency.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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The top 10 SF's by RPM. Full of guys that wont opt out, will have their offers matched, are injured, or we dont want.

[TABLE=width: 579]

[TR]

[TD]Player[/TD]

[TD]Pos[/TD]

[TD]Team[/TD]

[TD]Type[/TD]

[TD]ORPM[/TD]

[TD]DRPM[/TD]

[TD]RPM[/TD]

[TD]WAR[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Kawhi Leonard[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]SAN[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.01[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.35[/TD]

[TD=align: right]13.19[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]LeBron James[/TD]

[TD]SF/PF[/TD]

[TD]CLE[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.72[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.94[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7.66[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15.13[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Khris Middleton[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]MIL[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.39[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4.08[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6.47[/TD]

[TD=align: right]12.54[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jimmy Butler[/TD]

[TD]SF/SG[/TD]

[TD]CHI[/TD]

[TD]R[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.59[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.13[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.46[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.74[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Luol Deng[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]MIA[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.65[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.22[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Wesley Matthews[/TD]

[TD]SG/SF[/TD]

[TD]POR[/TD]

[TD]U[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.06[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.96[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.02[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6.75[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Al-Farouq Aminu[/TD]

[TD]SF[/TD]

[TD]DAL[/TD]

[TD]P[/TD]

[TD=align: right]-0.49[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.81[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.32[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.75[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Mike Dunleavy[/TD]

[TD]SF/SG[/TD]

[TD]CHI[/TD]

[TD]U[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.75[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.52[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.27[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.02[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jared Dudley[/TD]

[TD]SG/SF[/TD]

[TD]MIL[/TD]

[TD]ETO[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.03[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.05[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.08[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4.65[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Thaddeus Young[/TD]

[TD]PF/SF[/TD]

[TD]BRK[/TD]

[TD]ETO[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.39[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.92[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5.34[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

I endlessly pimped Al Farouq Aminu in the draft, my genius finally shines and only after I admittedmy mistake and called Al Farouq a bigger fraud than his fellow Nigerian princes who wanted me to send them my bank account number and password so he could help me unlock riches.

Still though, Aminu played his *** off against Houston.

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The original car analogy was simply to show that two teams will be paying the same money for two vastly different products. A third car was brought into the mix and things got weird :glasses:

Regardless of the car analogy, I don't see Middleton as much different than a D Green, J Green, or T Harris type player. Yet Middleton is going to get max money and those guys are going to get about 2/3rds of that because he's a Restricted Free Agent so you have to tie up a max offer for a chance to get him. If that's the route we're taking I'd rather tie up that money for a longer shot at getting a better player like Butler, D Green, or Leonard.

If not that, then I'd rather target the players that are closer in value to their price tag.

He's more complete and/or younger than those guys, its not just a RFA thing. Tobias doesn't play D, J.Green isn't the shooter he is and D.Green is less of a shot creator, though the most similar most likely.

Butler,Draymond and Leonard are unobtainable, so that's why we are discussing Middleton really.

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Also, don't see Chandler Parsons up on that list, further proof that Morey understood what his team needed which wasn't a soft diva with a finesse game. He said all the right things about Parsons, but at the end of the day, he chose future cap flexibility over him. Which says he didn't view Parsons as a core member of his team and wanted to keep his eyes open for a chance to snag a better player in the future even if that better player's identity isn't even known yet. He'll take that unknown over Parsons on a 3/45 deal. It's just too bad he can't find the right years to roster Ariza.

Morey had his analytic friendly star and then went and got a bunch of broke shot thugs who can bang to support him and Dwight. Where are the Morey had the worst offseason ever and has clearly lost his way critics now? Morey gets it, he gets the stats but also understands stats in CONTEXT.

Edited by ScrubBeaterUpper

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