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Deleterious

Reggie Jackson traded to Detroit

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A few things on this:

--There are a lot of examples of talented point guards who "can't shoot" who boost their 3pt shooting after their first few years in the league. I've made a similar post with maybe ten or twelve names on there--some are HOFers, some are all-stars, some were never all-stars. Off the top of my head, it included names like Jason Kidd, Mark Jackson, John Stockton, Kenny Smith, Gary Payton, Derek Harper and more. There isn't a Jerry West, Steph Curry or Mark Price that comes around that often who is a deadeye from their first year as a starter.

--But for the sake of argument, how many titles did West, Curry and Price combine to win? In fact, go through NBA history and show me how many title teams had an outstanding shooting pg. Jordan's Bulls are the obvious answer here, but the point guards were not the primary ball handlers/facilitators on that team--Pippen and Jordan were. Same with Chalmers in MIA on the Bron/Wade team. Billups was a solid 3pt shooter, but he didn't climb out of the low 30s until he was 24. From then on he was generally in the high 30s to low 40s with a year in the low 30s. Billups' buddy Terrell Brandon was very similar in his shooting pattern, although he tapered off when he body betrayed him at 28 and finally at 31 when he hung it up.

--Look back at the top 10 or 12 point guards of all-time since the three-point line was installed and tell me how many of those guys were outstanding shooters 3pt shooters at 24. Can't find many? Either can I. Want to cringe? Check out Zeke and Magic's three-point stats. Think their stats are irrelevant because the game has changed? Not a terrible argument, but what is certain is that shooting is not the most important aspect of being a point guard. It ranks somewhere behind, ball handling/control, court vision, leadership, burst to the basket/first step, and defensive ball-hawking ability.

A talented guard should 100% be able to improve his outside shooting at this stage in his career.

Just because there are many great teams without a good shooting point guard is irrelevant to the discussion IMO. Would you not want Stephen Curry or Chris Paul because they are good shooters? Of course not. The goal is to build a championship team with whatever players give the Pistons the best chance to do that together. I think we need a shooting point guard to complement Monroe and Drummond so the question becomes is Jackson that guy?

I will say I think it is likely Monroe is gone either way so I am not totally against bringing Jackson back. See what he commands as a restricted free agent and then make a decision.

Edited by Hart

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How many point guards who couldn't shoot never learned how to shoot? Do you have a list of those?

I'll give you one...Rodney Stuckey.

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How many point guards who couldn't shoot never learned how to shoot? Do you have a list of those?

Would you be so kind as to provide me with what exactly "learning how to shoot" means? As far as I know, most point guards likely learn proper form sometime in elementary school, and then sometime around junior high they are actually able to apply it to their shot because they are then strong enough to shoot from at least medium distance on a 10' goal without cheating on technique.

But if you are talking about point guards who were sub-standard shooters percentage-wise upon coming into the league who became at least average shooters down the road--that is a long list and I have provided that either earlier in this thread or in a different one. If you are curious, feel free to do your own homework without tossing out blanket statements.

But real quick, check out: Jason Kidd, Smith, Chauncey Billups, Jeremy Lin, John Wall, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Terrell Brandon, Tony Parker, Kenny Anderson, and the list goes on.

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Just because there are many great teams without a good shooting point guard is irrelevant to the discussion IMO. Would you not want Stephen Curry or Chris Paul because they are good shooters? Of course not. The goal is to build a championship team with whatever players give the Pistons the best chance to do that together. I think we need a shooting point guard to complement Monroe and Drummond so the question becomes is Jackson that guy?

I will say I think it is likely Monroe is gone either way so I am not totally against bringing Jackson back. See what he commands as a restricted free agent and then make a decision.

I want Curry or Paul because they are outstanding basketball players, it is a luxury that both are good shooters. This isn't a video game, you can't just make the Pistons add the best players in the league because you feel like it. Marquee players do not choose to play in Detroit over big market teams, we have to make speculative player moves to make it work. Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman, Dele, Okur, Hamilton, Big Ben, Billups, Drummond--these are all players that were acquired by Detroit because either their market value was low for various reasons, or because Detroit gave them the financial and practical opportunity they were looking for.

Monroe is not coming back, it becomes more clear every few days at this point-- so why are you trying to accommodate him? Is he really hurt bad enough that he can't play right now? SVG's decision was made for him by Monroe's camp, then BJ went down and Jackson came into the fold. The plan is now Jackson and Drummond because they are here, they are young, and they are pieces SVG thinks he can build on. There is little doubt that SVG brings in shooters to put around these guys, but best I can figure Curry and Paul probably aren't real options.

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Would you be so kind as to provide me with what exactly "learning how to shoot" means? As far as I know, most point guards likely learn proper form sometime in elementary school, and then sometime around junior high they are actually able to apply it to their shot because they are then strong enough to shoot from at least medium distance on a 10' goal without cheating on technique.

But if you are talking about point guards who were sub-standard shooters percentage-wise upon coming into the league who became at least average shooters down the road--that is a long list and I have provided that either earlier in this thread or in a different one. If you are curious, feel free to do your own homework without tossing out blanket statements.

But real quick, check out: Jason Kidd, Smith, Chauncey Billups, Jeremy Lin, John Wall, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Terrell Brandon, Tony Parker, Kenny Anderson, and the list goes on.

Mickey, you give a list of guards who came into the league who couldnt shoot who ended their careers as good shooters. Point taken.

My point is that there are plenty of guards who enter the league being unable to shoot consistently well from outside who never become good shooters. Agreed?

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I see as much upside to Dinwiddie as I do RJ.

Having both will be a huge luxury for SVG going forward. Dinwiddie just needs more experience playing against pro-level players and another training camp as well--he'll get both this summer.

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The board is still pretty split on Jackson, it seems, and not without reason. But if you are looking for a bright side, here are a few points brought up in a recent story by Dan Feldman:

--The Pistons have scored 105.6 points points per 100 possessions since Jackson’s arrival, according to nbawowy!.

•Drummond and Jackson with Monroe: 104.1

•Drummond and Jackson without Monroe: 114.9

--Jackson has already thrown more alley-oop lobs for dunks (15) to Drummond than Jennings did this year in spite of playing in fewer than half as many games.

--In spite of being asked to run the offense on a new team during mid-season, Jackson has averaged 15.3/8.3/4.8 vs Jennings' line of 15.4/6.2/2.5 with a team he went to camp with. Of course his 38.9 and 27.5 2pt and 3pt% needs to be improved upon, as do the 3.2 TO. Jennings shot 40.1 and 36%, respectively, with a stingy 2.2 TO. Jennings was revered for his performance this season, Jackson not so much.

--The last four games he has lead the team to a 3-1 record

--Also in the last four games, he has; gone for 20 and 20 in a win, 22-11 in a win, 17-11-9 in a win and 11-10-11 in a loss. When was the last time a Pistons point guard rattled off four double-digit assist games in a row? Jennings, who is a solid distributor, had eight double-digit assist games through the time he got hurt.

Jennings, if he comes back from his complete Achilles tear, will be one of the first point guards to do so successfully. Dan Dickau also did it years back and and never played more than 15.5 MIN in the next three years after until he retired. Certainly, Jennings has more talent than Dickau did but it is tough to be optimistic about anyone coming back from an Achilles injury--pretty much 'Nique is the only player who came all the way back, unless you think Kobe really did.

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Things you can always count on. Sun rising in the east, death, taxes, Feldman being a hack.

Anyone and everyone knows this team went through a transformation when they jettisoned Smith. So much so that we list with and after Smith when listing stats. Not Feldman, he hacks it up and lists Jennings stats with Smith. Why? Because they look worse that way and help prove his point.

He should also be using per/100 to adjust for pace.

Jennings since smith left and per/100 33.9 points, 12 assists, 3.5 TO's. Shooting 43/39/56

Jackson per/100 with the Pistons 24.2 points, 13.2 assists, 5.1 TO's. Shooting 38/27/46

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Great perspective, Del, as there is no doubt that the team played it's best ball in years after Smith was cut from the team. Jennings was playing as well as we could have hoped, and our shooters were making shots.

Then The strongest tendon in BJ's body betrayed him.

Jackson's last few games has picked up where the team left off after DJ filled in admirably for BJ. Selecting Jennings' post-smith stretch of ball is fine if we can do a post-3rd practice with his new team stretch for Jackson. Or if Monroe--our best player according to many--sits the rest of the season, perhaps a post-Monroe per 100 stat.

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Over the past five games our new-cleus has been hotter than "Jam on It" at a roller rink in 1984;

Jackson: 20.2 PTS, 12.2 AST/2.4 TO, 6.0 REB on 46.3% FG/35.5% 3pt in 33.0 MIN. Of note, 4.4 FTA including 8 in each of his last two games--he obviously reads the board! (who doesn't?)

KCP: 22.4 PTS, 4.6 REB, 1.6 TO, 53.8% FG/41.2% 3pt in 38.4 MIN. Of note, four of the past five games he has eclipsed 20 points.

Dre: 15.6 PTS, 15.8 REB, 0.4 TO, 2.4 BLK in 34.2 MIN. Of note, Drummond has averaged 6.4 FTA in this stretch--his season avg is 4.2.

The Pistons are now 4-1 without Monroe in the lineup. The wins in this stretch have all been against playoff teams, with two of the wins coming against teams with a pair of All-Star bigs. I believe it was Yeahbuddy who mentioned in another thread that we could have seen the last of Monroe if SVG has a S&T lined up with another team. Just an observation, but Ryan Anderson has been out over a month with a sprained MCL and has not set timetable to return. Anderson will be in the last year of his contract next season and of course SVG coached him when he won the league's Most Improved Player Award a few years back. He's played in just 74 games the past two seasons, and with Asik all but certain to take his 10.0 REB elsewhere as a UFA next season Monroe--who is from New Orleans--could be a fit.

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Over the past five games our new-cleus has been hotter than "Jam on It" at a roller rink in 1984;

Jackson: 20.2 PTS, 12.2 AST/2.4 TO, 6.0 REB on 46.3% FG/35.5% 3pt in 33.0 MIN. Of note, 4.4 FTA including 8 in each of his last two games--he obviously reads the board! (who doesn't?)

KCP: 22.4 PTS, 4.6 REB, 1.6 TO, 53.8% FG/41.2% 3pt in 38.4 MIN. Of note, four of the past five games he has eclipsed 20 points.

Dre: 15.6 PTS, 15.8 REB, 0.4 TO, 2.4 BLK in 34.2 MIN. Of note, Drummond has averaged 6.4 FTA in this stretch--his season avg is 4.2.

The Pistons are now 4-1 without Monroe in the lineup. The wins in this stretch have all been against playoff teams, with two of the wins coming against teams with a pair of All-Star bigs. I believe it was Yeahbuddy who mentioned in another thread that we could have seen the last of Monroe if SVG has a S&T lined up with another team. Just an observation, but Ryan Anderson has been out over a month with a sprained MCL and has not set timetable to return. Anderson will be in the last year of his contract next season and of course SVG coached him when he won the league's Most Improved Player Award a few years back. He's played in just 74 games the past two seasons, and with Asik all but certain to take his 10.0 REB elsewhere as a UFA next season Monroe--who is from New Orleans--could be a fit.

Oh wait, here's Mateen.

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