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What if Harbaugh bombs at Michigan?

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I think how well Hoke coached the team is understated. He inherited a program that was a disaster and had to recruit guys for a completely different style than the previous coach. He still won more games in his first 3 years than Dantonio won his first 3 years. Year 4 was a disaster, but I think it was in large part due to not finding a QB. That's Hoke's fault, but I'm not sure that one offense, which is a rather difficult task, is enough to tear the man down as a football coach. He was still working with a Rich Rod QB and his seniors were his first class, which was obviously transitional, much like Harbaugh's this year.

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I agree.

Hoke didn't get credit because he was hired to coach the team and he didn't appear to coach the team particularly well. The fact he helped set up his replacement well is appreciated, but I wouldn't equate his overall body of work to a foundation layer who efficiently (albeit remarkably) laid a foundation.

I would say a better analogy is like that friend or brother in law who claims he has the tools/experience to help you with a big job, and once the two of you get into it it becomes clear he is over his head, so you have to hire a contractor to finish what he started.

He might have done a good job of prepping the job site for the contractor and purchased the right supplies, but in the end he isn't going to be remembered for that. He is going to be remembered for over-reaching himself / being over his head. It isn't entirely fair, but them's the breaks.

Well that's the point, he did well at some aspects of his job. As a result of this Harbaugh will have a better starting line.

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Well, I guess I don't see how someone who does a good job laying a foundation, presumably doing well at all aspects of their job, is especially analogous to another who only did well at some aspects of his job.

Hence a better analogy was suggested.

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Well, I guess I don't see how someone who does a good job laying a foundation, presumably doing well at all aspects of their job, is especially analogous to another who only did well at some aspects of his job.

Hence a better analogy was suggested.

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you don't think Hoke turned around a lot of aspects of the program say so. I think he did and they are dues Harbaugh won't have to pay.

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I have no idea what you are talking about.

It isn't difficult. All I (and shabba before that) suggested was your analogy was a little off, and I suggested a different one.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the idea that Hoke left the program in a better state for his successor than Rodriguez did.

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I think the program was in pretty good shape when Rodriguez left. We know hoke is a terrible coach, so they fact they did well his first year goes to show that there was a solid foundation built before he came in.

Hoke left the program in worse shape in my opinion, if only due to the fact that they have no answer at quarterback.

Carr didn't exactly leave richrod with a lot to work with either.

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I think the program was in pretty good shape when Rodriguez left. We know hoke is a terrible coach, so they fact they did well his first year goes to show that there was a solid foundation built before he came in.

Hoke left the program in worse shape in my opinion, if only due to the fact that they have no answer at quarterback.

Carr didn't exactly leave richrod with a lot to work with either.

The biggest root of our problems is all the recruits and recruiting classes lost to coaching change. New coaches tend to get a bad class in their first year, as they start late and lose commits the old coach had locked up. Then other guys transfer. Carr and RR lost guys in their final class due to speculation they wouldn't be back too IMO.

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I agree.

I don't think you do. Not with me. I'm saying that I could walk out to a random construction site and pick whoever looks like the boss of any random cement crew and he would have done as well as Brady Hoke at coaching the Wolverines. I don't think you mean that.

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I don't think you do. Not with me. I'm saying that I could walk out to a random construction site and pick whoever looks like the boss of any random cement crew and he would have done as well as Brady Hoke at coaching the Wolverines. I don't think you mean that.

I know what you mean and disagree. Of course I believe the job of a football coach at a major program involves more than wins and losses. Yes, it's true that wins and losses are ultimately the deciding factor and for that Hoke was fired. That doesn't mean he wasn't successful at many aspects of the job though. Hackett said as much when he fired him.

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I know what you mean and disagree. Of course I believe the job of a football coach at a major program involves more than wins and losses. Yes, it's true that wins and losses are ultimately the deciding factor and for that Hoke was fired. That doesn't mean he wasn't successful at many aspects of the job though. Hackett said as much when he fired him.

Well, I don't think Hackett is going to say "we fired him because he was terrible". Nobody acts that way. Hoke seemingly left a clean program and that's really good. I know a few guys got into trouble for a couple of violent incidents, but I would guess if you got 115 people together in any group.....football players, lawyers, pastors, accountants, that you are going to have a handful that don't behave well. Hoke was not a good coach. He did better with Rich's recruits than his own (Rich recruited some incredible athletes, but refused to address the defensive scheme). Hoke recruiting classes were highly touted (though I think rivals and scouts and all that stuff is a bunch of political bullspit), and the higher percentage of the team with Hoke recruits meant a worse record year after year. If he really did recruit so well, we're going to probably see that indication right from the start with Harbaugh. As far as the QB situation goes - no, they don't have one that stands out right now, but think of the fact that QBs from other programs come to see Harbaugh for tutoring before the NFL draft - so you could not ask the young QB to be in better hands.

My theory and belief on Hoke was this. Brandon needed someone from the Bo/Mo/Lloyd coaching tree to shut people up. Les Miles could not be hired because of personal issues in his Michigan past and Brandon wanted to hire someone he could completely control. I don't think Hoke was ever truly the coach 100%, I think Brandon was making decisions for him and it just undercut everything Hoke tried. I think Brandon is a narcissist and wanted someone to fall on the knife for him and knew he had a guy so desperate for the Michigan job that he'd put up with about anything. Brandon is way more to blame for the mess than Hoke is, but the fact that Hoke would put up with it means he wasn't a good coach. Hackett's doing it right. He doesn't make it about himself and basically leaves Harbaugh alone and I think Hackett would have done that with any coach.

Edited by Motor City Sonics

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My idea of being very good is not the same as some Michigan fans. Contend every year......at least beat your rivals at home. But for some it's national playoffs or failure. What if it's a series of 9-3 seasons with major bowl appearances? Are the faithful going to call for his head then? This is "the guy" right? If it doesn't work for him, how broken is this thing?

National playoffs or failure? They have half a national championship in the modern era. They worship the ground that the man who fired Ernie Harwell walked on. And he set the bar for a good season as beating OSU and losing a bowl game. The real legacy of U of M between the man who fired Ernie Harwell and RichRod isn't that the team was ever that great ... because frankly they don't measure up to the elite teams by that metric ... but rather, that they never **** the bed ... forty years without a losing record, that is truly impressive, ... if that record is broken in this era, it will either be by a mid-major that slips through the cracks, or be a sign of such a loss of parity that you won't be talking about a Big Two-Little Eight, but rather a Big Two-Little Division I. However, that isn't a measure of a team's ceiling, but rather of its floor.

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I think most Michigan fans that remember what life was like pre-RR were content with finishing in the top 2 of the big ten and winning 2 out of 3 rivalry games. If that happened, you didn't hear many people complaining about the season. And it was good enough that you could go into the next season with hopes of being a top ten team and potential for being a national contender with a couple breaks.

As for the "half a championship" lament, that's more than many people can claim. It's certainly better than losing in the national title game. Besides, it was a full AP championship from what I can remember.

There were a number of years there where they would have been in play for a 4 team playoff if one more bounce had gone their way (1997, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2006).

That's the bar people hope to meet, I think. But even if they fall short and have a 2001, 2002 type season, no one should be calling for the coach's head (though a vocal minority surely will).

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