Stormin' Norman

2015 Draft thread

724 posts in this topic

Seattle has a great RB and a mediocre line.

Also just as you can find RBs beyond the 1st round, there are other ways to upgrade your OL. Its not take Gurley and then roll with Rob Sims and Ladrian Waddle for 5 straight years no matter what. This OL was quite good in 2013 and Swanson has potential to be a big upgrade on 2014 Raiola IMO. A healthy Waddle could make us one of the better OLs in the league. Snagging up a guy like Poutasi or Daryl Williams later on in the draft would provide some nice depth for now and hopefully a guy eventually developed into a starter.

The difference is that Seattle has one of the best defenses in recent memory to balance out the offense and they are built to run the ball to set up the pass The Lions don't have that luxury and are built completely differently.

Also, Seattle is strong on both lines. Their offensive line took a bit of a step back last season but it was still a pretty solid group.

I just look at running back as such a low importance position especially for this team that is built around its QB and receivers. I think they have a clear weakness on both lines and didn't address any of these needs through free agency (downgraded in the interior) so they are going to need to use multiple draft picks IMO on O and D-Linemen. With them not having their 4th and 5th rounders, this puts more of a premium on beefing up the trenches with the early picks.

You win by bringing in the best talent you can and win offensively by being a threat to attack the defense in the ground and in the air. That's what drafting Gurley would bring.

Every year false narratives pop up based on the previous season' date=' last year it was "the Cowboy's offensive line made DeMarco Murray". Murray has always been a talented back, his problem has been injuries. He stayed healthy last year and led the league in yards after contact (it's also worth noting that Lance Dunbar had a mediocre 3.4 yard per carry as their second back.)

And there is no real long term risk from a 22 year old recovering from an ACL.[/quote']

It's hard to run the ball when your line can't open up holes.

Also, it's always a risk when a RB hurts any part of his leg.

Edited by NYLion

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I'm very interested to see what Waddle is long term. I don't think anyone really knows. Drafting an OL is certainly not a bad idea, but the OL will heavily depend on Waddle(or Lucas I guess) and Swanson next year IMO.

Another one to keep an eye on is Michael Williams. I heard that he was doing well last year.

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The difference is that Seattle has one of the best defenses in recent memory to balance out the offense and they are built to run the ball to set up the pass The Lions don't have that luxury and are built completely differently.

Also, Seattle is strong on both lines. Their offensive line took a bit of a step back last season but it was still a pretty solid group.

I'm just going to put this here.

SEA%20DET%20OL.png

The only reason Seattle is "built to run to set up the pass" is because they have a great running back. So let's add a great running back.

I just look at running back as such a low importance position especially for this team that is built around its QB and receivers. I think they have a clear weakness on both lines and didn't address any of these needs through free agency (downgraded in the interior) so they are going to need to use multiple draft picks IMO on O and D-Linemen. With them not having their 4th and 5th rounders, this puts more of a premium on beefing up the trenches with the early picks.

We're going to add a running back in the draft anyway. I'm all for adding both a OL and DT in this draft - but they don't need to be in the first round. Unless you are advocating for us to replace Reiff, you really don't need a first round lineman.

Also, it's always a risk when a RB hurts any part of his leg.

Jags GM Dave Caldwell was just talking yesterday about the studies they have done on ACLs. Apparently its shown that when you're dealing with athletes prior to age 26, there is little risk from an ACL tear. A bone break or Achilles would scare me.

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Seattle has a great RB and a mediocre line.

Also just as you can find RBs beyond the 1st round, there are other ways to upgrade your OL. Its not take Gurley and then roll with Rob Sims and Ladrian Waddle for 5 straight years no matter what. This OL was quite good in 2013 and Swanson has potential to be a big upgrade on 2014 Raiola IMO. A healthy Waddle could make us one of the better OLs in the league. Snagging up a guy like Poutasi or Daryl Williams later on in the draft would provide some nice depth for now and hopefully a guy eventually developed into a starter.

I look at this team as having three pressing needs: OT, DT and CB. All three of those needs could be met in the draft, even using the Lions BPA philosophy. Taking Gurley IMO would still leave a vacancy at one of those pressing needs. If Gurley was the one piece we needed to get over the hump, win the division and make a conference championship game, I'd say go for it. As it stands now, I think we have too many gaping needs to spend a pick on Gurley.

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I'm just going to put this here.

SEA%20DET%20OL.png

Preface: I'm not saying you specifically said this.

I don't get it and maybe its because I just don't truly understand football's X's and O's. However, all year long I had to sit here and read and listen to fans saying that Stafford's sub-par play was related to how weak and ineffective his offensive line was. As well, his poor play was naturally a given do to the fact that he had no support from the running game. Then, I heard it said that the running game was so ineffective because our backs had poor run-blockers in front of them. Now, I read this chart, compared to Seattle, and wonder how bad our line really was. Are we now shifting the narrative off the offensive line in-term of performance last year and saying that if we just had a stud RB our troubles would be solved? Is Gurley the new magical elixir like Ebron was sold to be?

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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I've been on record pointing to the injuries and rotating line ups being the biggest issue, combined with Raiola's declining play. Continuity at the position really is huge there.

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Also the lines are where Mayhew has had the most sucess as a GM drafting. The only lineman on either side of the ball that didn't have a career was the 6th or 7th round tackle from 2011. Even people like Fox and Murtha played decently when on the field (Murtha retired from Dolphins due to injury.) We also have had solid UDFA signings and free agent gems like Hillard and George Johnson.

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Another one to keep an eye on is Michael Williams. I heard that he was doing well last year.

He certainly intrigues me

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I look at this team as having three pressing needs: OT, DT and CB. All three of those needs could be met in the draft, even using the Lions BPA philosophy. Taking Gurley IMO would still leave a vacancy at one of those pressing needs. If Gurley was the one piece we needed to get over the hump, win the division and make a conference championship game, I'd say go for it. As it stands now, I think we have too many gaping needs to spend a pick on Gurley.

I tend to disagree. I'm cool with adding an OT, but I don't consider it a pressing need. I do consider RB a VERY pressing need. I think our run game suffered more because of the lack of Bush(4.5 ypc, 1K yards in 2013) than the OL, which was relatively unchanged. Obviously we had some health issues and the decline of Raiola though. I'm not letting the OL off the hook completely or anything. I think its more fixable internally. OTOH, Bush is gone, RIddick has shown no ability as a runner and Bell behind any OL has shown an inability to get you 4 ypc or more consistently. He's a guy I love having on my team and who is multi-faceted, but he's not a lead back. As much as people want to de-emphasize RBs(and rightfully so to a degree),they're still important and good teams very often have a good one and have spent good resources to acquire them.

Also, IMO, Gurley is not just any RB. This is a deep RB class and I love a ton of them. Gurley is special though IMO, arguably the best RB prospect since AP.

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Preface: I'm not saying you specifically said this.

I don't get it and maybe its because I just don't truly understand football's X's and O's. However, all year long I had to sit here and read and listen to fans saying that Stafford's sub-par play was related to how weak and ineffective his offensive line was. As well, his poor play was naturally a given do to the fact that he had no support from the running game. Then, I heard it said that the running game was so ineffective because our backs had poor run-blockers in front of them. Now, I read this chart, compared to Seattle, and wonder how bad our line really was. Are we now shifting the narrative off the offensive line in-term of performance last year and saying that if we just had a stud RB our troubles would be solved? Is Gurley the new magical elixir like Ebron was sold to be?

the same folks who defend Stafford as an elite QB trash the oline all the time.

I like PFF, but I watched all the Lions games this year and their oline was not good, IMO. And as much as I don't think Stafford is elite, I don't think he was as bad as PFF said he was. But what do I know? I'm just a fan.

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Gurley is a superstar, who should be one of the top talents in this draft. He shouldn't be available for the Lions, but if he is, they would be stupid not to draft him.

He is a running back. They have the shelf life of milk. id prefer o-line or DTor. Cb. Plenty of areas of need rather than draft a luxury RB.

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He is a running back. They have the shelf life of milk. id prefer o-line or DTor. Cb. Plenty of areas of need rather than draft a luxury RB.

I agree as I would love to see the Lions build the lines.

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I agree as I would love to see the Lions build the lines.

I tend to agree with this. All other things being equal I'd prefer to see the Lions work on improving both sides of the lines.

That said, *IF* the general consensus is that Gurley is a once in a decade player, I'd hate to pass on him if he's available. I'd hate to end up drafting Tony Mandarich with Sanders still on the board.

I guess the problem is I'm starting to lose faith in the FO as time goes by. I'm not 100% confident that they can make the right call on whether Gurley will be worth it or not. I fear what will happen is that the Lions trade up, get Gurley, and he ends up being a Best or Kevin Jones... Flashes of greatness but never able to overcome injury issues. (Not saying this is what WILL happen... just a lingering dark fear...)

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I know Mayhew never trades back in the first round, but I sure would love it if they could get Jerry Jones (or anyone really) believing that they are going to draft Gurley. That way they have a sure-fire trading partner to move back and pick up an extra 3rd or 4th/5th round picks.

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the same folks who defend Stafford as an elite QB trash the oline all the time.

I like PFF, but I watched all the Lions games this year and their oline was not good, IMO. And as much as I don't think Stafford is elite, I don't think he was as bad as PFF said he was. But what do I know? I'm just a fan.

Hey now, some of us blame Lombardi.

Also, not contesting the adequacy of the offensive line. I was contesting the offensive line compared to Seattle and the difference a powerful back makes.

I agree as I would love to see the Lions build the lines.

We can do both. Our best lineman was a third round pick.

I know Mayhew never trades back in the first round, but I sure would love it if they could get Jerry Jones (or anyone really) believing that they are going to draft Gurley. That way they have a sure-fire trading partner to move back and pick up an extra 3rd or 4th/5th round picks.

As much as I'd love Gurley, I'm fine with turning him into three players. I'd want a third and a fifth though. If Jones wants Gurley, make him pay.

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Yah, lets not pretend those of us who value Gurley don't value the OL or don't think it needs any improving. I want Blalock ideally and I'd be cool drafting someone like Poutasi in the 3rd. I also think there is room for internal improvement.

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Finally threw $6 at the premium version of On The Clock so I can do some trades.

I doubt we ever would get lucky enough for the Jaguars to offer their 3, 4 and 5 for our 2nd, but if they did...

1: R1P23 RB TODD GURLEY GEORGIA

2: R3P3 DT CARL DAVIS IOWA

3: R3P24 G LAKEN TOMLINSON DUKE

4: R4P4 CB IFO EKPRE-OLOMU OREGON

5: R5P3 CB ERIC ROWE UTAH

6: R6P24 DT DERRICK LOTT TENNESSEE-CHATTANOGA

7: R7P14 DE RAY DREW GEORGIA

8: R7P23 WR J.J. NELSON UAB

Lott is probably overkill, but I don't care.

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Finally threw $6 at the premium version of On The Clock so I can do some trades.

I doubt we ever would get lucky enough for the Jaguars to offer their 3' date=' 4 and 5 for our 2nd, but if they did...

1: R1P23 RB TODD GURLEY GEORGIA

2: R3P3 DT CARL DAVIS IOWA

3: R3P24 G LAKEN TOMLINSON DUKE

4: R4P4 CB IFO EKPRE-OLOMU OREGON

5: R5P3 CB ERIC ROWE UTAH

6: R6P24 DT DERRICK LOTT TENNESSEE-CHATTANOGA

7: R7P14 DE RAY DREW GEORGIA

8: R7P23 WR J.J. NELSON UAB

Lott is probably overkill, but I don't care.[/quote']

Any chance you remember who Jacksonville traded three picks to move up 13 spots for in the bottom third of the second round?

Very nice pipe-dream scenario though. Kind of makes you wish that the Lions hadn't have had to send two picks over. (I know they got a seventh, but a seventh doesn't do much for me.)

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Any chance you remember who Jacksonville traded three picks to move up 13 spots for in the bottom third of the second round?

Very nice pipe-dream scenario though. Kind of makes you wish that the Lions hadn't have had to send two picks over. (I know they got a seventh, but a seventh doesn't do much for me.)

I think they got Gordan

I'm definitely going to be pained on the third day - I love the 4th and 5th round. But Ngata was also my top Suh replacement.

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Hopefully they'll recoup a midround pick or 2 in some sort of trade back.

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I look at this team as having three pressing needs: OT, DT and CB. ...

I see (4) top-3-round needs. DT, OG, RB, CB.

I would not be pleased going into this season with only Joique Bell and Theo Riddick as our RB's. I hope no one on here is seriously happy with that scenario.

I have a couple of thoughts on that:

1) How to get an extra pick. A trade-down, if it presents itself, would be perfect. The other thing to consider is trading one pick next year for a pick this year. Mayhew's done it before, trading a future 4th for a 5th rounder to select Tahir Whitehead. Believing that his value was much higher than a 5th... If a higher round talent falls into a round lower and we can get a pick, I could see Mayhew doing it again. Let's just say for example, Gordon is rated a 1st rounder by the Lions but slips into the top of the 2nd (just an example... please don't take me to task for the reasonableness of this particular scenario...), and we're able to select him with a top-5 pick in the 2nd as 1 of those teams gets our 2016 1st rounder in trade for their 2nd. I could certainly see Mayhew doing just that.

2) I look at player-value-round in BPA. I'm not worried whether I get a DT in round 1 or 2, or a RB in round 1 or 2... I'm just looking at best player available, with the most value, for each selection. I am NOT concerned about which round we select a position in. I understand picking for team needs as well... I am not immune to that... but BPA 1st, for positions of need.

IE: 1st round value, by rank (sort of mine...): Gurley, Malcolm Brown, DJ Humphries, Gordon, Goldman, Jordan Phillips, Peat, Cameron Erving, PJ Williams, Clemmings?

You can change the order if you want... but if Gurley is available, I select him. Gone, I take Brown. Both gone, I take Humphries... etc., etc. If Gurley is available, and Brown & Humphries are gone, I don't take Phillips or Goldman, or Peat... sorry.

2nd round value: Erving, PJ Williams, Clemmings, Tevin Coleman, Abdullah... These guys may be available at the top of the 2nd... but I don't think I'd trade a 2016 1st rounder for any of them. If Gordon or Goldman fell to the top of the 2nd... I'd consider it I think. I like Coleman a lot too though... I might consider a deal for him as well...

More likely at our pick late in the 2nd: Carl Davis, TJ Yeldon, Jake Fisher, Marcus Peters, Byron Jones, Alex Carter, Eric Rowe, Kouandjio, Matias, Marpet, AJ Cann, Tre Jackson...

Fill the next need, whoever is BPA...

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Another good example:

Bleacher Report has a 7-round mock with us getting Malcolm Brown, Tevin Coleman, and Jacoby Glenn in the 1st 3 rounds. I'd be ecstatic with that!

I'd be even more ecstatic, since Laken was available at our 3rd round pick and Eric Rowe fell to the 4th (#121) in their mock, if we ended up with:

Brown, Coleman, Tomlinson, and getting a 4th rounder this year to select Eric Rowe.

Would anyone trade a 2016 3rd, to get an early-to-mid 4th, to select Rowe, if the opportunity arose?

To reiterate: I would be ECSTATIC if we ended up with Malcolm Brown, Tevin Coleman, Laken Tomlinson, and Eric Rowe as our 1st (4) draft picks this year!!!

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Humphries is interesting. I love that he's played his best ball against legit NFL rushers - but he's having to eat a ridiculous number of calories per meal right now to keep at an NFL weight. He's up there on my first round list though, along with Collins, Dupree (who's probably my 1) and Gurley.

Brown worries me because he's pretty much a one trick pony - he needs to win with his quickness inside. For a first round defensive lineman, I need a speed and power. It's an easy position to miss on (I remember doing research on DTs prior to 2010 and the hit/miss rate for them in the first round was actually worse than QBs - it's why I was actually a proponent of Eric Berry over Suh for a while.)

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PS: It looks like there's a boatload of really good 2nd/3rd round guards available... I really think that's where we should concentrate on improving our O-Line... I'd be satisfied to give Reiff/ Lucas/ Waddle/ Michael Williams another year to see what they can give us, before having to use another draft pick on an OT. Maybe use a 6th/ 7th this year on another OT flyer if the right one falls to us in that range...

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There's a couple later round DT's I like... Gabe Wright, Derrick Lott, Tyeler Davison, Joey Mbu, Xavier Cooper... and since I think we need to select two DT's in this draft (especially the way we rotate so much...), I'd like to see a couple of these guys fall to the 6th...

PS: Leterrius Walton too... another late round DT I like a lot...

But in the 1st round, I'm really hoping Gurley (not likely) or Brown falls to us... I actually like Jordan Phillips quite a bit too...

Edited by 84 Lives!!!

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