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RedRamage

What's wrong with the Offense?

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but its more than just the third string te or 4th string wr. It's everyone on the team other than golden tate. Its the inaccurate passes from stafford too.

Im willing to give ebron a pass because he's a rookie, but he's been poor. Calvin hasnt looked the same since week one but that might be injury. Bush is nothing to me, riddick is better. The oline is devoid of talent other than warford (who hasnt been nearly as good this year) and rieff (who is an average talent at best).

Im hoping to god they destroy the bears. This town will be insufferable if they dont.

Riddick might be better as a pass catcher, but Bush gave us 4.5 ypc and 1000 yards last year. We badly miss that. The 3 TDs were all just about perfect throws and the 2 Ebron drops were damn good too. Again, it wasn't just the drops, he had to throw a lot of balls away or put them where a defender couldn't get them, that was the biggest issue. The drops were a factor too though.

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Riddick might be better as a pass catcher, but Bush gave us 4.5 ypc and 1000 yards last year. We badly miss that. The 3 TDs were all just about perfect throws and the 2 Ebron drops were damn good too. Again, it wasn't just the drops, he had to throw a lot of balls away or put them where a defender couldn't get them, that was the biggest issue. The drops were a factor too though.

I think that's the biggest reason I let Stafford off the hook the past few weeks. IMO, it happened a lot last year too. Golden Tate is the MVP of this offense, and without him they would likely have lost a few more games. I didn't think they needed to pay him what they did, but now it is a bargain for what he has given this offense this year.

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The offensive line is fine considering the injuries. Dom, Sims and Waddle are capable when healthy - which is all I really need from an offensive line. I'm actually fine with how Lucas has played considering the quality of defensive front he has faced.

But I'm not arguing that the offense as a whole isn't producing the way we need them too - I've been saying it from the beginning. The question is how much of it is scheme and how much of it is ability. The former can be corrected, even at this point in the season - the latter can't.

To use a benchmark that number20 used in another thread, I'm not willing to put money on the table that we will correct our offensive problems. But I'm even more reluctant to put the same bet that we won't.

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We will be 8-4 in 2 days. 8-4.

Let that sink in for a second.

Stop, you don't know that at all. We were supposed to make the playoffs last season...everyone knew it. There was no way we were going to lose to TB, NYG, Ravens (who were struggling), or the Vikings who were awful. We have no played well in a while this season...we got some lucky breaks during the Atlanta, NO, and Miami games...but I don't think it is appropriate to be handing the Lions wins prematurely quite yet.

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The offensive line is fine considering the injuries. Dom' date=' Sims and Waddle are capable when healthy - which is all I really need from an offensive line. I'm actually fine with how Lucas has played considering the quality of defensive front he has faced.

But I'm not arguing that the offense as a whole isn't producing the way we need them too - I've been saying it from the beginning. The question is how much of it is scheme and how much of it is ability. The former can be corrected, even at this point in the season - the latter can't.

To use a benchmark that number20 used in another thread, I'm not willing to put money on the table that we will correct our offensive problems. But I'm even more reluctant to put the same bet that we won't.[/quote']

Lucas has been as bad as an OL can be and Sims has been pretty horrific too. Raiola can hold his own but isn't playing as well as last season. Waddle is banged up when in, Reiff is fine and Warford is fine but not run blocking as well as last year.

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Lucas has played bad ball, but he's been thrown into some nasty matchups in the last couple games when he hasn't been rotating out with Reynolds. The reality is that he was an undrafted tackle who was supposed to come in as an emergency 4th tackle and plays like it. But he does show hints of potential.

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You did see the numerous drops - including two in the endzone' date=' right?[/quote']

Yes, I saw them. And commented on them in the game thread.

The fact of the matter is that every QB deals with some dropped passes - even Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins and Teddy Bridgewater, each of whom have a higher completion percentage on the season than Stafford. And Stafford was way worse on Sunday than his season average of 58.8%. You just can't move the chains without an accurate QB, and Stafford just can't seem to get over his struggles to be accurate.

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Stafford has been great at moving the chains, despite accuracy issues, for 3 years. The idea that he suddenly forgot how is bizarre to me. Could be the case, but it wouldn't be my first guess.

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Andrew Luck's O-Line sucks too. Andrew Luck has a sub-par running game. Why isn't Andrew Luck stinking up the joint this season like Stafford is?

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Andrew Luck's O-Line sucks too. Andrew Luck has a sub-par running game. Why isn't Andrew Luck stinking up the joint this season like Stafford is?

you can say Luck's Oline sucks, but if so the Lions' still sucks worse.

The Colts have rushed for 1218 yard, 64 1st downs, at 4 yards per carry

The Lions have rushed for 889 yards, 45 1st downs, at 3.3 yrs per carry.

Stafford has been sacked 33 times, Luck 20.

I don't mean sound to like I'm praising Stafford to any great dergree, sure there are better QBs, but the odds of landing one are not that great, while on the other hand, guys no better or even worse than Stafford can be successful given less pressure - better surrouding cast.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Andrew Luck's O-Line sucks too. Andrew Luck has a sub-par running game. Why isn't Andrew Luck stinking up the joint this season like Stafford is?

Fwiw, the Colts have the same record as us and also lost by 20+ to NE, in their own building. Yes, his stats are MUCH better than Stafford's and our D has been great. I get that. At the same time, when Stafford had stats and the record was subpar, he was forced to claim it as his own. Its not fair for it not to go both ways. How the season finishes out is obviously key.

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Stafford has been great at moving the chains, despite accuracy issues, for 3 years. The idea that he suddenly forgot how is bizarre to me. Could be the case, but it wouldn't be my first guess.

Good analysis...

I think its worth noting that while, yes, Stafford will probably never make into the Rodgers/Manning/Brady class, that doesn't make him a bad quarterback and that you can't win a Super Bowl with him. Having watched some Lions games this year (I'm a Pack fan, but they've been on TV down here a couple of times), the thing that stands out to me is the offensive line. Stafford simply doesn't have time a lot of the time to make the throws he needs to make. Sunday, for instance - I know the stats don't lie - but having watched that entire game, he appeared to be running for his life a lot of the time and there were numerous drops as well in key situations.

It's like I've said to Cowboys fans since I've been living down here (when they've brutalized Tony Romo for his various faults)... good NFL quarterbacks are hard to come by. Stafford isn't Rodgers or Brady, but he's still a good option and the Lions are capable of winning a lot of games with the guy.

Anyway, just my two cents...

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Yes, I saw them. And commented on them in the game thread.

The fact of the matter is that every QB deals with some dropped passes - even Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins and Teddy Bridgewater, each of whom have a higher completion percentage on the season than Stafford. And Stafford was way worse on Sunday than his season average of 58.8%. You just can't move the chains without an accurate QB, and Stafford just can't seem to get over his struggles to be accurate.

I didn't see an accuracy problem this past Sunday. Dropped passes and missed routes. Golden Tate ran the wrong route 3 out of 4 plays on one series.

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Yes, I saw them. And commented on them in the game thread.

The fact of the matter is that every QB deals with some dropped passes - even Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins and Teddy Bridgewater, each of whom have a higher completion percentage on the season than Stafford. And Stafford was way worse on Sunday than his season average of 58.8%. You just can't move the chains without an accurate QB, and Stafford just can't seem to get over his struggles to be accurate.

The comment I was replying to was about quarterback rating in the game, which would have been dramatically altered those numbers. But hey, if you'd rather have Bridgewater as your QB - have fun with that.

Andrew Luck's O-Line sucks too. Andrew Luck has a sub-par running game. Why isn't Andrew Luck stinking up the joint this season like Stafford is?

Lucks line has had a lot more stability than Detroit's, which is key. He's also playing for his college offensive coordinator and not dealing with him and his teammates being in the first year of a new complicated offense.

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The comment I was replying to was about quarterback rating in the game' date=' which would have been dramatically altered those numbers. But hey, if you'd rather have Bridgewater as your QB - have fun with that.[/quote']

Don't put words in my mouth.

Stafford is a big boy now, getting paid the big bucks. There is no excuse for a 39% completion rate in any game; 46% if you add in the three drops you mentioned.

Stafford is getting paid the big money to lead this franchise. He is getting paid several times what his head coach is being paid, and even more so what his OC is getting paid. This franchise has made him THE MAN, and I would like to see him start to act like it. If people are running the wrong routes, I'd like to see him handle that like Manning/Brees/Rodgers. If the playbook is too complex, he has been around long enough to help Lombardi install his offense in a way that the players (who Stafford knows) can succeed with. There is no excuse for Stafford to have let the wheels come off the offense.

On the issue of your silly statement that I would rather have Bridgewater than Stafford: the real way to frame that is whether the team would be better off with Stafford, or with a cheap Bridgewater-type QB AND Ndomakung Suh. As it stands, it looks unlikely that the team will have the cap room to sign Suh to the kind of deal he wants, given the money already committed to Stafford (and CJ). Suh is by far more valuable to this year's Lions team than Stafford. But we will likely end up losing Suh, the best player at his position and a top-5 defensive player in the league, and keeping Stafford, who has proven to be nothing more than mediocre.

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Stafford is getting paid the big money to lead this franchise. He is getting paid several times what his head coach is being paid, and even more so what his OC is getting paid. This franchise has made him THE MAN, and I would like to see him start to act like it. If people are running the wrong routes, I'd like to see him handle that like Manning/Brees/Rodgers. If the playbook is too complex, he has been around long enough to help Lombardi install his offense in a way that the players (who Stafford knows) can succeed with. There is no excuse for Stafford to have let the wheels come off the offense.

On the issue of your silly statement that I would rather have Bridgewater than Stafford: the real way to frame that is whether the team would be better off with Stafford, or with a cheap Bridgewater-type QB AND Ndomakung Suh. As it stands, it looks unlikely that the team will have the cap room to sign Suh to the kind of deal he wants, given the money already committed to Stafford (and CJ). Suh is by far more valuable to this year's Lions team than Stafford. But we will likely end up losing Suh, the best player at his position and a top-5 defensive player in the league, and keeping Stafford, who has proven to be nothing more than mediocre.

I was listening to Colin Cowherd talk about where NFL teams should spend money with all the new rules that have come out the past few years. He brought up this question, "Who has been the best 4th Quarter QB in the NFL the past" I think he said 3-4 years? (He was using QBR and a few other stats)" He also brought up other questions about this same QB when it comes to TD's, yards, and several other categories about how highly ranked he was. The answer was Tony Romo. The same Romo that was getting ripped unmercifully as being a guy that wasn't "clutch", that couldn't win the big games, whose team brought in big names but still couldn't win. Romo may have been the most bashed QB the past 5 years IMO. He compared him to other QB's like Eli Manning, and several other supposedly "clutch" QB's and the stat differences made Eli and those other QB's look REALLY bad in comparison (actually Eli looked like an awful QB). So what happened this year to turn Romo into a hero? He has a strong and healthy O-line. Colin's argument is that if you have a QB that has put up big numbers, has won some big games, spend your money on the O-line. Don't dump money on big name WR's and RB's. The NFL has decided that they are going to protect the WR's now. It's easier to get open as a WR because new rules say they can't hardly touch you any longer. Spend big money on an O-line that can protect your QB, and make sure you have a QB that can deliver the ball. IMO Stafford is a mini Romo. He has the skills. He's proved he can win big games. He has racked up some amazing yardage in his career. Get him an O-line that can keep the defense away from him. Stafford still has a decently high ceiling, but his clock is ticking. I think with a great o-line, Stafford would be a top 5 QB in the NFL. He probably has 4-5 good, possibly great seasons left in him (maybe more if they can protect him like NE protects Brady)

Also, Colin said outside of paying big for your QB and O-Line, he said that next big money should be spend on DL's. So getting Suh back should be a top priority for the Lions, although I'm not sure they can afford him now. :(

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[quote name=Jason_R;3174849Stafford is a big boy now' date=' getting paid the big bucks. There is no excuse for a 39% completion rate in any game; 46% if you add in the three drops you mentioned.

Stafford is getting paid the big money to lead this franchise. He is getting paid several times what his head coach is being paid, and even more so what his OC is getting paid. This franchise has made him THE MAN, and I would like to see him start to act like it. If people are running the wrong routes, I'd like to see him handle that like Manning/Brees/Rodgers. If the playbook is too complex, he has been around long enough to help Lombardi install his offense in a way that the players (who Stafford knows) can succeed with. There is no excuse for Stafford to have let the wheels come off the offense.

Id love to see them give Stafford more control over the offense. Id like to see him run the no huddle more and give him more autonomy at the line - he's played his ball this year (and really his entire career) in that set up. But, his salary aside, quarterbacks dont have that power unilaterally - the coaching staff does.

On the issue of your silly statement that I would rather have Bridgewater than Stafford: the real way to frame that is whether the team would be better off with Stafford, or with a cheap Bridgewater-type QB AND Ndomakung Suh. As it stands, it looks unlikely that the team will have the cap room to sign Suh to the kind of deal he wants, given the money already committed to Stafford (and CJ). Suh is by far more valuable to this year's Lions team than Stafford. But we will likely end up losing Suh, the best player at his position and a top-5 defensive player in the league, and keeping Stafford, who has proven to be nothing more than mediocre.

Staffords contract is very reasonable relative to the rest of the league. Hes making less than players lime Cutler and Matt Ryan. Id rather have Stafford than Bridgewater and Suh, but we can fit both under the cap.

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Id love to see them give Stafford more control over the offense. Id like to see him run the no huddle more and give him more autonomy at the line - he's played his ball this year (and really his entire career) in that set up. But' date=' his salary aside, quarterbacks dont have that power unilaterally - the coaching staff does.

Staffords contract is very reasonable relative to the rest of the league. Hes making less than players lime Cutler and Matt Ryan. Id rather have Stafford than Bridgewater and Suh, but we can fit both under the cap.[/quote']

The rest of the league is, by definition, mediocre. Basically you're saying that, since other teams have paid second and third tier QBs in the $17-$20 million range, we should make excuses for Stafford to perform as a third tier QB.

I'd be open to the team drafting a new QB if that QB was the top player on the board when they picked. Stafford has been coddled long enough. He is being paid to produce. He clearly has the physical talent to produce, but does he have the mental ability or leadership?

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Im saying that Stafford is a value at his current contract and that you can't judge a QBs performance based purely on stats.

Does he have the stats? No.

Does he have the wins? No.

Does he have the leadership and intangibles? No.

Does he make the people around him better? No.

I mean, I'd like to have a beer with the guy, I think he has the physical tools to succeed, and I want him to succeed, but I don't see him ever becoming anything more than mediocre.

I will be delighted if he throws for 350 and 3 TDs tomorrow and I end up looking like a fool.

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I didn't see an accuracy problem this past Sunday. Dropped passes and missed routes. Golden Tate ran the wrong route 3 out of 4 plays on one series.

how do you know it was tate running the wrong route and not stafford making the wrong read?

I dont think stafford is bad, i just think he's a mediocre nfl qb. And he's not consistently accurate. He never has been, whether he was "moving the chains" or not.

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If the lions are the most talented team in the league (or one of the most talented) then why do they have the lowest scoring offense in the nfc?

Every year they fail its the coach's fault. Or injuries. Or refs.

Maybe, just maybe, do you think you might be overrating their talent level just a bit?

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Regardless of any of this, they should beat the effing bears, vikes, and bucs at home. Never has there been a better slate of opponents for the lions to feast on.

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Does he have the stats? No.

Does he have the wins? No.

Does he have the leadership and intangibles? No.

Does he make the people around him better? No.

I mean, I'd like to have a beer with the guy, I think he has the physical tools to succeed, and I want him to succeed, but I don't see him ever becoming anything more than mediocre.

I will be delighted if he throws for 350 and 3 TDs tomorrow and I end up looking like a fool.

He does have the stats - over the course of his career. Not this year - but no one here is saying this has been a good year.

He doesnt have the wins yet, no. It needs to happen. This year.

He does have the leadership and the intangibles - as proven by his ability to lead comebacks.

I can't say he's made the people around him.

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